Discussion:
Russian women - a far better experience for American men
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Wanderer
2004-06-13 05:23:23 UTC
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Dear Reader,

If you are one of the many Westerners who harbor the myth that most or all
Russian women are desperate to leave their country or want a green card, then
please read my article below and consider the 12 points that I make which prove
that it to be a narrow-minded egocentric American myth. These points are based
on my experiences of being 6 months in Russia, visiting 9 cities, and meeting
hundreds of people there.

Regards,
Winston

12 Reasons Why Russian Women Are NOT Desperate To Leave Their Country
A Complete Debunking of the American Myth

By Winston Wu (***@aol.com)

This article addresses a myth that comes up often during discussions about
Russian women. Many ignorant Westerners (who have never been to Russia
obviously) believe that most women in Russia are desperate to leave their
country and get a green card to America, or they pose that as the explanation
for why Russian women treat us men so much better and are more open and
friendly than their Western counterparts. This myth is especially common among
feminists and arrogant men. These people make snap judgments about something
they know nothing about. However, this common myth is completely wrong, and I
will demonstrate this from every factual angle. Allow me to elaborate.

Before I begin though, remember that Americans are not the standard to compare
the rest of the world by. Just because people in other countries are different
from here doesn't mean that they must have ulterior motives. Why can't people
be naturally different or have different attitudes and behaviors without having
ulterior motives or something fishy up their sleeve? Furthermore, American
women are not the default standard set by God for how all women should be, and
thank goodness for that too. America is a strong capitalistic country with
values that encourage individualism and selfishness. Therefore, countries
which have a different social/economic system and values are obviously going to
cultivate different kinds of people. It is as simple as that. To expect
otherwise would be unrealistic.

1) First of all, the simple fact in reality is that most women in Russia are
NOT trying to leave their country to live abroad. (In fact, most people in any
country are not trying to leave it.) Through the many diverse Russian women
I've met and interacted with in 9 cities over 6 months, here is what I've
learned. The average Russian woman loves to travel to other countries due to
their love of foreign culture, curiosity, and sense of adventure. But they are
not looking to move abroad permanently. It is rare to find one who has a sole
purpose of moving abroad.

Now, let me tell you this. I've met about 115 women in Russia. Out all those,
only about TWO of them want to emigrate to America (and I mean move there, not
just visit). That's TWO out of 115! Do you really think that 2 out of 115
constitutes a majority? lol I hope that you realize how silly this myth that
you harbor is now!

In fact, the percentage of the female population in Russia who belong to
marriage agencies is far less than one percent of the population. According to
the statistics on the Myths section of Elena's site
(http://www.womenrussia.com/myths.htm) the percentage of the women in Russia
affiliated with marriage agencies looking for foreign men is about 0.13 percent
of the total population. That's almost a tenth of one percent! Such a stat is
only an estimate of course, but the point is that the women looking to leave
their country for good is a very small percentage of the whole, contrary to
what many Americans believe and what our media likes to perpetuate.

Those that are considering moving abroad are not usually desperate to do so
anyway. It is extremely rare to find a person in Russia who is desperate to
leave their country, but as always, those who are are the ones who make the
news, hence getting attention which contributes to this myth. As a matter of
fact, many women who join internet marriage agencies are not even willing to
leave their country, but are just scammers without serious intentions who get a
high off of having men come and spend money on them, wine and dine them, etc.
And among the sincere women in marriage agencies, they are usually just
considering it as an option anyway, not basing all their hopes on it. Their
view is that they would consider moving abroad for the right man that they fall
in love with, but relocating is not their primary objective. Finding the right
man for them is.

And even among these few who want to relocate, most of them prefer Europe
rather than America because 1) the proximity is more convenient to allow them
to come back to visit their families, and 2) European culture is closer and
more compatible to Russian culture.

(On a side note, I have melded and adjusted to Russian culture before, and I
can tell you that Russian culture in general is not compatible with American
culture, and neither are most European cultures. Hence there are very few
Russian/European immigrants to America compared to Asian and Hispanic
immigrants. However, Russian culture is compatible and complementary to most
European cultures, and that is why the transition between them is smooth and
pleasant, which I know from experience, whereas the transition from Russian
culture to American is very psychologically painful, disruptive and disturbing
in many ways.)

This myth began as a rant started by feminists to defend their pride against
the tide of Western men who are looking for women abroad, painting the men as
desperate losers and the foreign women as conniving users who want a green
card. The media further perpetuated it to appease these feminists, whom are
the main audience for their advertisers. Besides this, our media's other
purpose is to motivate you to get up and go to work or school everyday to keep
our economy/society productive. One of the ways of doing this is to make you
think that other people are worse off than you and would give anything to be in
your shoes. And of course, bad news sells better for the media and its
advertisers, since people like to believe that others are worse off than they
are and would give anything to be in their shoes, to keep themselves motivated
in their current situation in life.

To get an idea of Russian people's views, check out these interviews with
everyday people there at this site. You will see that almost none of them are
trying to leave their country.

http://www.waytorussia.net/Features/RussianPeople.html

Now, here is a challenging question for the Westerners out there who believe in
this myth. I have heard that in Saudi Arabia, the natives see Americans there
who came on a spiritual pilgrimage to Mecca, which they consider the spiritual
center of the world. This leads them to assume that most Americans must be
desperate to leave their country to come to Saudi Arabia and Mecca. After all,
that's what they see happening around them. Now, let me ask you this. Are
they right that most Americans are trying to leave their country to find
salvation in Saudi Arabia? Is that what they would find if they came here? If
not, then why not? After all, that's what they see going on in their country.
They are doing the same thing YOU do, looking around their immediate
surroundings and making snap judgments. You see a few Russians around you in
your country, hear stories on your news, etc. and assume that most Russians
want to come to your country. Therefore, their reasoning process is no
different than yours. Do you see how faulty and narrow your myth is now? Now
you should understand what I've discovered in Russia, which is that people in
general there are not desperate to leave their country at all, which is what
Saudi Arabians would discover about America if they came here.

In fact, there's really no such thing as a "Russian mail order bride" anymore
than there is a Santa Claus. You cannot just go online and "order" a wife or
bride. That denigrating term and concept was created by our media for
political and social reasons to help foster patriotism and appease a feminist
audience. You can read about this in more detail at:

http://www.womenrussia.com/mail_order_brides/
http://www.womenrussia.com/russianwomen/escape.htm

Also check out the FAQ's and misconceptions section of:

http://www.wtw.org/mob/Lies.htm

Sorry folks, but the truth is, in real life you can't "buy" or "order" a bride
from Russia, contrary to the fictional concept created by our media. Those
marriage/introduction/dating agencies out there simply allow you to purchase
their womens' contact information, not sell away their individual rights.
You've still got to win their hearts or attraction to you. Of course, there
are prostitutes in Russia that you can buy for a while, but these internet
marriage/dating agencies are not in that business. They are either legit, or
else they are trying to scam you with fake photos of women. But in either
case, they are NOT letting you buy or order actual women to be brides. Of
course, these agencies all have their share of gold diggers, visa whores, and
leisure snoochers, but they have many quality women who are not like that at
all.

2) Second, as I mentioned above, most of the women that are in those online
marriage agencies are NOT there for the sole purpose of getting out the
country. They are there because there is a shortage of good men in their
country who behave decently and can financially provide for them (see the next
point on surpluses and shortages) and they want to see if they can meet such a
man for them. IF they meet that right man, THEN they will consider relocating
to his country if he wishes. But their main objective is NOT to get out of
their country!

Now, if you want to claim that some of these Russian women want a foreign man
because he has more money and is a better provider, that may be a factor, but
you've also got to ask yourself, how is that any different from an American
woman (or any woman for that matter) who wants a partner who is financially
stable and a good provider for the family? Such double standards are too
prevalent in our society. Motives are not mutually exclusive, contrary to what
some ignorant people want to believe.

Also, even with the ones that want to leave their country, at least they want
to leave with someone they LOVE and is COMPATIBLE with them, not just anybody!
Just because someone wants a foreign mate doesn't mean they'll take anyone!
Common sense should tell you that. Think about it and put yourself in their
shoes. If you wanted to move to a country by marrying someone there, would you
take anyone, or something you are compatible with and love? Likewise, if an
American woman wanted to have children and raise a family, do you think she
will just marry anyone who could give her that? No, of course not. She would
want the right person for her and her future family, someone she's compatible
with who has the qualities that she desires, who could capture her heart and
provide for her. So would you say then that her ONLY motive for being with any
man was just to use him? Obviously not. So why would it be any different for
a Russian woman who wanted to marry a foreigner? People are so quick to
believe the worst about others, which is sad because it marks a sign of a
dysfunctional psyche.

3) Third, in Russia there is a big SURPLUS of attractive mentally healthy
single women, rather than a shortage like in the US. In the US there is a
surplus of nice good single men and a shortage of nice attractive mentally
healthy single women. As a result, even the less attractive women in the US
can afford to become pickier, and good single American men can easily have
trouble finding available decent women. Just go to any bar or nightclub in the
US and you'll see that usually the men outnumber the women. And even the
unattractive women in those places seem like princesses to the surplus of
disgruntled chumps there. It's a really pathetic scene for the nice guy.

But in Russia, the deck is stacked in the average man's favor rather than
against him like in the US. The surplus of available women is another factor
in why Russian women are friendly and approachable.

In fact, a Russian woman I am corresponding with named Natasha wrote this below
in response to my question of why she was seeking a foreign mate.

"Why do you seek foreign relations?

Because its very difficult to find someone special in my city. I live in a
small city, we have a lot of girls, but not many boys. Some of boys doesn't
want to have serious relationship, they want to have girl for one night, you
understand what i mean. Some of them like to have fun and not care about
future, some of them marryed and some of them prefer to drink to much. That is
why i'm trying to find someone special abroad."

Well she has a good point here if you think about it. If the women outnumber
the men, then the men will be less inclined to marry or have serious
relationships because they are able to play around and have multiple
relationships at the same time. Not that that's a good thing, but that
describes the nature of many men. (However, I have to admit that
unfortunately, this also means that many Western men who go to the Former
Soviet Union will also be tempted to not get serious in a monogamous
relationship, and instead just to play around with multiple women.)

4) Fourth, the women in Russia are naturally communicative, curious, and
intellectual. They typically have a wide variety of interests too. Therefore,
they are obviously going to be naturally outgoing and communicative with me out
of sheer curiosity if nothing else.

5) Fifth, I can tell you from experience that overt friendliness and
hospitality is an integral part of Russian culture. As my friend Masha told me
after my first 6 week trip to Russia:

"I don't think that Russians treated you so well only to your being a rich,
Hospitality is an integral part of Russian character, and you can see it during
travelling by trains when people in one compartment became good friends,
spending together not much time and treating each other with their food. On my
way to Izhevsk, I was in one compartment with an old woman and spent 2 days
together and she told me about all her life since her childhood and when she
got off the train( but earlier than I) she introduced me to all her relatives
who came to meet her at the station. So, don't think that you was met good only
due to your been a foreigner, rich foreigner, may be, you can't understand why
they did so, and I can't explain-it's Russian character, if you'll come to
Russia again and live for a while, may be then you will understand and even
feel why."

Well she was right. After 6 months in Russia the second time, I experienced
what she meant. I definitely felt the hospitality and friendliness that was an
integral part of Russian culture and soul. It is something that exists
naturally, straight from the depths of people's souls, without agenda or
motive. And it's sad that many Americans cannot fathom such a concept that's
above their heads, since in our western materialistic individualistic society,
actions almost always have motives and agendas. That says sad things about
what our society, though economically prosperous, has become. Our mistaken
mentality is that just because we tend to be agenda-driven, does not mean other
people are too.

6) Sixth, Russian women come from a different economic/social system than
ours, which give them a different mentality and social attitude than us. Our
country is based on a strong capitalistic system that is Darwinistic in nature
and fosters individualism. Competition is the basis of our culture and
economy, and therefore becomes our mentality as well. This means that people
either have money, or they are striving to be better than everyone else. This
competitive mentality eventually leads us to become more "stuck up" toward
others than we would otherwise be. We evaluate others in terms of their worth,
and compare ourselves to them. This creates a rivalry mentality that leads
fellow human beings in our country to see each other as opponents or
adversaries. And sadly enough, having a lot of money and material possessions
changes your attitude toward others, making you more spoiled and "stuck up".

On the other hand, countries like Russia are accustomed to a more socialistic
system that is less individualistic and competitive in nature. Therefore,
people's mentality and attitude are going to be different obviously. In poor
countries, people don't have as much money and material possessions, so
therefore they are not so spoiled and "stuck up" as people in capitalist
countries. What they lack in material assets, they make up for in personality
and soulfulness. It's a simple trade-off here. In the US, it's vice versa of
course. Therefore, it is not realistic to expect them to be the same as us
(and thank goodness for that). And that's one reason why people in general in
Russia are more open and friendly. Therefore, the major factor in why Russian
women are so much friendlier and open has to do with the economic/social system
they live under and the mentality it produces, and not because they are
desperate to leave their country.

7) Seventh, women in Russia have a natural admiration for men, as long as they
are good, decent, kind, and have good character. They do not have the deep
rooted hatred for men that American women have who were brought up with by
their mothers, peers, and feminist media. Any sane man would obviously prefer
to be around the former than the latter, since obviously the former brings out
the best in men while the latter brings out the worst in them.

Nowadays in America many women seem to have a deep-rooted subconscious hatred
of men. Even if they like a man at first, they seem to look for excuses or
ways to hate him later, even going so far as fabricating reasons or
manipulating facts. First they bring out the WORST in them, and then use that
AGAINST them as well, justifying their hatred of men, and making it a no-win
situation for the man! Not all are like this of course, but many are. It
seems like some kind of psychosis or control drama that has become a disturbing
pattern. Every man's nightmare is seeing his woman whom he thought loved him,
suddenly becoming cold, cruel, and flaky. It's a creepy and shocking
experience.

In addition, nowadays American women don't even NEED men anymore, so they treat
them as expendable and unnecessary. They have all the advantages in our
society now - money, career, the legal system on their side, the ability to get
jobs with their looks rather than qualifications, etc. and they simply don't
need (or even like) men anymore. That's the growing trend, and with their
goddess mentality, they demand that men be submissive, lest they be seen as
creeps or chauvinistic pigs.

In fact, all the foreign people I've met in my travels seem to either have a
negative opinion of American women, or else they've heard nothing but negative
things about them. Now, do you think that's a pure coincidence? Do you think
that's due to no fault of American women? Do you think this international
reputation of women in America is the result of "evil American men"
(sarcastic)? lol What does common sense tell you?

8) Eighth, there are many American man/Russian woman couples who live together
in Russia. I have met some of them too. If the Russian woman in these couples
was desperate to leave their country, then why would they choose to stay in
Russia? Some of the men in these couples told me that their Russian
wife/girlfriend preferred to stay in Russia, and so they stayed with them.

9) Ninth, the Russian women I met who weren't seeking relations with foreign
men didn't treat me any less better than those who did. They were willing to
spend time with me, and get to know me or date me. The same goes for those who
didn't have a romantic interest and just wanted to be friends.

10) Tenth, if they were desperate and saw me as a ticket out of Russia, why
would some dump me if they didn't think we were compatible? And why didn't I
get a 100 percent response rate from the ones I wrote, if it didn't matter who
wrote to them, only that he could take them out of their country?

11) Eleventh, here is another good point made on an internet article I read
that I didn't consider before. It made sense and is another factor at work
here, so let me quote it.

http://www.womenrussia.com/russianwomen/escape.htm

"The truth of the matter is, that the percentage of Russian women who are
looking for their "soul mates" through the internet is no greater than the
percentage of women from western countries such as England, Canada, Australia
and the United States who are searching the Internet for their future
spouse!!!!

Here is an interesting tidbit: With the population of Russia at approximately
170 million people as compared to the United State's population of more than
250 million people, why is it that you don't see as many dating agencies from
other countries?

The answer, is a simple one... CHOICE!!!

Women, from the USA and most other Western Nations have choices to use or not
to use the services of a dating agency. Almost all women from western countries
have computers at home or at work. The Internet services in most of these
countries are ridiculously low when compared with the cost of the same services
in Russia.

Only a few very big Russian cities such as Moscow and St. Petersburg have
Internet services that are more or less affordable for an average person.
Russia is a huge country, with its eleven time zones from East To West and is
just now establishing Internet services. It is only within the last three or
four years that the Internet service providers have begun to take hold within
Russia and the fees for their monthly services are out of reach to most Russian
citizens. It is not uncommon for most Internet services to cost $100.00 or
more, a month. With the average salary, for example, for a Russian doctor being
around a $100.00, it is a luxury few citizens can afford. But, we are talking
about a single woman or a one-parent household.

Do you think that the average American single mother could afford this kind of
money for Internet services? So, this is the reason why you see so many Russian
dating agencies! Russian women HAVE TO USE their service!"

12) Twelfth and finally, despite all of the above, the bottom line here is
that women in Russia are almost ALWAYS APPROACHABLE! That is the reality,
regardless of the reasons for it. Whether they want to meet you or not (and
often they do), whether they are interested in you or not, whether they are
single or not, they are ALWAYS APPROACHABLE at least! They almost NEVER give
you that look that young attractive American women do when you approach them
which implies "Who are you? I don't talk to strangers. If you don't know me,
you aren't supposed to be talking to me.=3F This means that you never feel
awkward, uncomfortable, or like a creep for approaching them, regardless of her
interest level toward you. You feel like there's nothing to lose. And that's
a BIG difference.

In contrast, in the US, when you try to approach and meet a girl you find
attractive but don't know, it feels awkward and uncomfortable like you are
doing something you aren't supposed to be doing. It makes you feel like you
are a creep. This is true even if the American girl is actually friendly and
sociable. Therefore, in the states, in order to try to meet women, you always
have to try to conquer that awkward feeling. It's a constant uphill battle
that really sucks and shouldn't be that way.

By the way, Russian women are not only approachable to me because I am a
foreigner or because they want something from me. It's how they naturally are.
They are that way to Russian men too. So it's not really about me, but about
THEM! I try to keep them as the focus, but my critics tend to prefer to focus
on finding fault with me instead. How convenient.

Testing my claims from your home

You might think that in order to test my claims above, you would have to go to
Russia yourself. You could do that of course, but I have a simpler way for you
to do it right from home. And no, it doesn't involve looking for Russian women
in your local home town either (after all, would you try to learn what black
people are like in Africa from black people in America?). Rather, it involves
contacting average ordinary Russian women on a pen pals site designed for
friendship and exchange of cultures. Remember that since this is not a
marriage agency or dating site, you will almost never find scammers or
conniving gold diggers on it. Therefore, the Russian women from this site are
much more representative of the average typical females in their country. Here
is the link:

http://www.sv-agency.udm.ru/sv/penpal.php

Now select "Russia" from the countries menu and click on the "Search" button.
Around 500 results will come up, comprised mostly of Russian female ads. You
can write the ones you find interesting individually, or just send them all a
mass form letter to save time. Many will write you back and from their letters
and words, you can get a glimpse of the traits and qualities in them that I
describe in this essay. But most importantly, to test my main claim here that
they aren't desperate to leave their country, you can poll them or ask their
opinion about moving to America. You find that you will be lucky to find even
one in a hundred among them who is seeking to move permanently to America. Try
it and you'll see what I mean. It will definitely show this myth to be in
vain.

Conclusion

The people making these rash statements about Russian women being desperate to
leave their country have never even been to Russia. No one who has spent
extensive time there thinks that people there are desperate to leave their
country. Most Russians are very proud of their country and culture, and it
shows in their traditions, architecture, music, holidays, vibes, etc.

From what I've learned, the reasons why Russian women treat me better and give
me much more attention are:

1) They are NATURALLY friendlier and more open than women in the West. As
mentioned above, they lived under a different economic/societal system than
ours that didn't cultivate a competitive selfish mentality in them like ours
does. And as we all know, people from poorer countries are less spoiled and
selfish too. They make up in personality and soulfulness what they lack in
material possessions.

2) As already mentioned, women in Russia are almost always APPROACHABLE, both
to foreigners and locals, whether they're interested or not (which further
debunks the myth that their friendliness is a cover for ulterior motives). One
can speculate on the reasons for it, but that's the bottom line and reality.

3) In addition, they are naturally curious, communicative, intellectual, and
exploratory by nature. There is a free-spirited uninhibited playfulness about
them which you would have to experience to know what I mean. These are common
traits I've noticed in a very high proportion of Russian women I've met.

4) They have a natural admiration for men, as long as he is good, decent,
kind, and with good character, rather than the deep rooted hatred for men that
American women have influenced by their mothers, peers, and feminist media.
Therefore, they bring out the best in a man, rather than the worst.

5) Some Russian women perceived me as rich and wealthy by their standards
(even if I told them that I'm not).

6) Those that don't care about money still see me as an exotic and interesting
novelty, or as a chance to practice their English with.

7) Finally, like I said earlier, there is a big surplus of attractive single
women in Russia, and a shortage of good men who can treat a women right (which
is inverse to the US). Therefore, a lot of nice single women who have trouble
finding a good available man see me as a valuable find.

Some Russian women are friendly to me due to one of these factors, others are
due to a combination of them. But as you can see above, NONE of the reasons
have to do with them being desperate to leave their country.

A matter of personal qualification

If you still doubt this, then ask yourself this. Who is more qualified to
comment on whether Russian women are desperate to leave their country, someone
like me who has been to 9 cities in Russia, traveled around there for 6 months,
met hundreds of people and had lots of experiences, or the egocentric American
who never goes abroad, gets his/her information from the egocentric US media,
and makes snap judgments about people there being desperate to leave? (Remember
the Saudi Arabia analogy above)

You know, I hate it when people are so judgmental. It's one thing to be
judgmental about something you have a lot of knowledge in, which I can respect.
But when people are judgmental about something they know almost nothing about,
that's ridiculous and a big turn off to me.

The reasons I elaborated on obviously prove that this ignorant myth about
desperate Russian women is wrong. I have been acquainted with many Russian
women, and I can tell you that the majority of them do not act desperate or
project those kind of vibes. They are simply sweeter, more modest, unspoiled,
friendly, unparanoid, etc. and they do not have the self-righteous and arrogant
tone that many American women (and sometimes men) have.

A final warning

By the way, I should warn you though, that once you go to Russia and experience
what I'm talking about, you will NEVER get used to the way women are in America
again. Ever. Seriously. They will seem so MASCULINE and MONSTROUS in
comparison to the women you experienced in Russia and Eastern Europe.
Something deep inside of you will change too, and you won't be the same person
afterward. You have to experience it to truly understand what I mean.

Picture this. Imagine being in an environment like Russia surrounded by women
who admire men and bring out the best in you, getting used to that for 6
months, and then coming back home to be surrounded again by women who hate men,
bringing out the worst in you. Then you'll better understand what I mean about
how hard it is to get used to that.

Thanks for listening.

Best Regards,
Winston
krp
2004-06-13 15:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wanderer
Dear Reader,
If you are one of the many Westerners who harbor the myth that most or all
Russian women are desperate to leave their country or want a green card, then
please read my article below and consider the 12 points that I make which prove
that it to be a narrow-minded egocentric American myth. These points are based
on my experiences of being 6 months in Russia, visiting 9 cities, and meeting
hundreds of people there.
Maybe you MISS the interviews with the Russian (and eastern block
nations) where they say themslves that they ARE trying to get out of Russia
etc.
Post by Wanderer
Regards,
Winston
12 Reasons Why Russian Women Are NOT Desperate To Leave Their Country
A Complete Debunking of the American Myth
This article addresses a myth that comes up often during discussions about
Russian women. Many ignorant Westerners (who have never been to Russia
obviously) believe that most women in Russia are desperate to leave their
country and get a green card to America, or they pose that as the explanation
for why Russian women treat us men so much better and are more open and
friendly than their Western counterparts. This myth is especially common among
feminists and arrogant men. These people make snap judgments about something
they know nothing about. However, this common myth is completely wrong, and I
will demonstrate this from every factual angle. Allow me to elaborate.
Of all foreign marriages to American men, Russian (and former soviet
block nations) wives are the most prone to end in divorce, and the marriage
end rather quickly. In less than 2 years. Just long enough to make the
hurdel for permanent resident status.
Post by Wanderer
1) First of all, the simple fact in reality is that most women in Russia are
NOT trying to leave their country to live abroad. (In fact, most people in any
country are not trying to leave it.) Through the many diverse Russian women
I've met and interacted with in 9 cities over 6 months, here is what I've
learned. The average Russian woman loves to travel to other countries due to
their love of foreign culture, curiosity, and sense of adventure. But they are
not looking to move abroad permanently. It is rare to find one who has a sole
purpose of moving abroad.
Most women in Russia don't know HOW to hook up with American men or
can't afford the meat market prives to enter the lottery for an American
husband. Funny, the Russian women being interviewed on RUSSIAN Television,
refer to the American men they meet as "Losers." The economy of Russia is
screwed. First because the Communist system as all socialist systems was a
waste. Secondly because you still don't have a real free market, you still
have socialists and then the Russian mafia sucking the life out of the
economy. I have also known many Russians, men and women. Not all
relationships are doomed, not all Russian women are predatory, but people in
hard times can do desperate things. All my negative comments aside, the rate
of divorce between American men and Russian women is still only a third of
the divorce rate with American women. But the divorce rate with Latin women
is a tiny fraction of even that. Marriage to Japanese and Chinese women is
also very low. Lower than with women from eastern Europe.

I agree with much of what you said about the women not actually selling
themselves. There are occasions where that is splitting a hair.
hvatum
2004-07-02 21:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wanderer
Post by Wanderer
Dear Reader,
If you are one of the many Westerners who harbor the myth that most or all
Russian women are desperate to leave their country or want a green card,
then
Post by Wanderer
please read my article below and consider the 12 points that I make which
prove
Post by Wanderer
that it to be a narrow-minded egocentric American myth. These points are
based
Post by Wanderer
on my experiences of being 6 months in Russia, visiting 9 cities, and
meeting
Post by Wanderer
hundreds of people there.
Maybe you MISS the interviews with the Russian (and eastern block
nations) where they say themslves that they ARE trying to get out of Russia
etc.
Post by Wanderer
Regards,
Winston
12 Reasons Why Russian Women Are NOT Desperate To Leave Their Country
A Complete Debunking of the American Myth
This article addresses a myth that comes up often during discussions about
Russian women. Many ignorant Westerners (who have never been to Russia
obviously) believe that most women in Russia are desperate to leave their
country and get a green card to America, or they pose that as the
explanation
Post by Wanderer
for why Russian women treat us men so much better and are more open and
friendly than their Western counterparts. This myth is especially common
among
Post by Wanderer
feminists and arrogant men. These people make snap judgments about
something
Post by Wanderer
they know nothing about. However, this common myth is completely wrong,
and I
Post by Wanderer
will demonstrate this from every factual angle. Allow me to elaborate.
Of all foreign marriages to American men, Russian (and former soviet
block nations) wives are the most prone to end in divorce, and the marriage
end rather quickly. In less than 2 years. Just long enough to make the
hurdel for permanent resident status.
Again, A feminist making assumptions that cannot be backed up in fact
at all. I assert that the average divorce rate for foreign marriages
is about 20%, and guess what? Unlike you I'm actually right...

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p70-80.pdf
krp
2004-07-03 16:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by hvatum
Post by Wanderer
Dear Reader,
If you are one of the many Westerners who harbor the myth that most or all
Russian women are desperate to leave their country or want a green
card, then
Post by hvatum
Post by Wanderer
please read my article below and consider the 12 points that I make
which prove
Post by hvatum
Post by Wanderer
that it to be a narrow-minded egocentric American myth. These points
are based
Post by hvatum
Post by Wanderer
on my experiences of being 6 months in Russia, visiting 9 cities, and meeting
hundreds of people there.
Maybe you MISS the interviews with the Russian women (and eastern
block
Post by hvatum
nations) where they say themslves that they ARE trying to get out of
Russia etc.
Post by hvatum
Of all foreign marriages to American men, Russian (and former soviet
block nations) wives are the most prone to end in divorce, and the marriage
end rather quickly. In less than 2 years. Just long enough to make the
hurdel for permanent resident status.
Again, A feminist making assumptions that cannot be backed up in fact
at all. I assert that the average divorce rate for foreign marriages
is about 20%, and guess what? Unlike you I'm actually right...
Well I can tell you from MY experience in divorce and custody cases that
there is a high incidence NOW.... Your Census report is dated 1996.. This is
2004.
8 YEARS have gone by. There were far fewer marriages in 1996 and in effect
almost NONE of the big marriage bureaus that exist today existed then.
Internet penetration in the eastern bloc nations in 1996 was almost
non-existent. Nice TRY at rationalization. But anyone working on these cases
knows TODAY'S reality.
Different Russian women today. In those days more of the relationships were
romantically based. My position is NOT that Russian women are bad as a
whole, but that there is an insidious number that are predatory today. Many
occasions were found where the women were still legally married in Russia.
They remain here long enough to get their resident status, then divorce the
American husband and bring over their Russian husband.

I am NOT saying that ALL Russian women are this way, just that your wild
eyed and naive assumption that it is all sugar and honey is not the real
world. And many men have found these women running back to Mother Russia
with kids. GOOD LUCK in trying to get anything from a Russian court! And I
do mean ANYTHING!
ozzman
2004-07-03 21:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
My position is NOT that Russian women are bad as a
whole, but that there is an insidious number that are predatory today. Many
occasions were found where the women were still legally married in Russia.
They remain here long enough to get their resident status, then divorce the
American husband and bring over their Russian husband.
You always have to do your homework - spend time knowing her
background before hooking up with her
Post by krp
I am NOT saying that ALL Russian women are this way, just that your wild
eyed and naive assumption that it is all sugar and honey is not the real
world.
This is true - Russian women can easily assimilate andbecome
spoiled and rotten just like US bitches. True of all women no
matter where they come from. Best advice in this regard is to
live abroad with the foreign chick, divide your time between
foreign country and US.
krp
2004-07-04 01:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
My position is NOT that Russian women are bad as a
whole, but that there is an insidious number that are predatory today. Many
occasions were found where the women were still legally married in Russia.
They remain here long enough to get their resident status, then divorce the
American husband and bring over their Russian husband.
You always have to do your homework - spend time knowing her background
before hooking up with her

That might apply to you and I, but not to the desperately sex starved.
Besides there are no Private Investigation agencies that can or will give
you such information in the old eastern bloc.
Post by krp
I am NOT saying that ALL Russian women are this way, just that your wild
eyed and naive assumption that it is all sugar and honey is not the real
world.
This is true - Russian women can easily assimilate and become
spoiled and rotten just like US bitches. True of all women no
matter where they come from. Best advice in this regard is to
live abroad with the foreign chick, divide your time between
foreign country and US.
I'd not call American women "bitches" exactly, but most DO hate being
women and seem hell bent in taking that anger out on me as if WE caused them
to have a vagina. I looked at Russian women. What did I see? Too many also
had a hair trigger anger response. I also found them a bit cold and
demanding, too similar to their American sisters, but desperate for a man
that has some promise. I prefer Latinas. In specific Cuban women. They are
fiercely independent yet not only capable of love they overflow with it if
you are respectful to them. The average American douchebag that slugs down
Budweiser by the gallon, is a couch potato, and likes slapping the little
woman around for sport will NOT like a Latin woman! You'd be likely to wake
up in incredible pain with your penis in your mouth, and your testicles in
Toledo.
ozzman
2004-07-04 02:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wanderer
Post by krp
My position is NOT that Russian women are bad as a
whole, but that there is an insidious number that are predatory today.
Many
Post by krp
occasions were found where the women were still legally married in
Russia.
Post by krp
They remain here long enough to get their resident status, then divorce
the
Post by krp
American husband and bring over their Russian husband.
You always have to do your homework - spend time knowing her background
before hooking up with her
That might apply to you and I, but not to the desperately sex starved.
Besides there are no Private Investigation agencies that can or will give
you such information in the old eastern bloc.
This applies to anyone with a brain. It's the first thing he
should know before he goes out looking, and it can be pretty much
handled by himself. If he feels he has to hire a PI, then he has
to be resourceful to get one. Otherwise he's on his own.
Post by Wanderer
Post by krp
I am NOT saying that ALL Russian women are this way, just that your
wild
Post by krp
eyed and naive assumption that it is all sugar and honey is not the real
world.
This is true - Russian women can easily assimilate and become
spoiled and rotten just like US bitches. True of all women no
matter where they come from. Best advice in this regard is to
live abroad with the foreign chick, divide your time between
foreign country and US.
I'd not call American women "bitches" exactly, but most DO hate being
women and seem hell bent in taking that anger out on me as if WE caused them
to have a vagina. I looked at Russian women. What did I see? Too many also
had a hair trigger anger response. I also found them a bit cold and
demanding, too similar to their American sisters, but desperate for a man
that has some promise. I prefer Latinas. In specific Cuban women. They are
fiercely independent yet not only capable of love they overflow with it if
you are respectful to them. The average American douchebag that slugs down
Budweiser by the gallon, is a couch potato, and likes slapping the little
woman around for sport will NOT like a Latin woman! You'd be likely to wake
up in incredible pain with your penis in your mouth, and your testicles in
Toledo.
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
krp
2004-07-04 07:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
You always have to do your homework - spend time knowing her
background
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
before hooking up with her
That might apply to you and I, but not to the desperately sex starved.
Besides there are no Private Investigation agencies that can or will give
you such information in the old eastern bloc.
This applies to anyone with a brain. It's the first thing he
should know before he goes out looking, and it can be pretty much
handled by himself. If he feels he has to hire a PI, then he has
to be resourceful to get one. Otherwise he's on his own.
Look Oz, HORNEY men SELDOM think before they plug in. Where do you hire
a PI in Moscow?? Yellow pages? How many are listed?
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an erection has
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean realize
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a catch!
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
I am NOT saying that ALL Russian women are this way, just that
your wild
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
eyed and naive assumption that it is all sugar and honey is not the real
world.
This is true - Russian women can easily assimilate and become
spoiled and rotten just like US bitches. True of all women no
matter where they come from. Best advice in this regard is to
live abroad with the foreign chick, divide your time between
foreign country and US.
I'd not call American women "bitches" exactly, but most DO hate being
women and seem hell bent in taking that anger out on me as if WE caused them
to have a vagina. I looked at Russian women. What did I see? Too many also
had a hair trigger anger response. I also found them a bit cold and
demanding, too similar to their American sisters, but desperate for a man
that has some promise. I prefer Latinas. In specific Cuban women. They are
fiercely independent yet not only capable of love they overflow with it if
you are respectful to them. The average American douchebag that slugs down
Budweiser by the gallon, is a couch potato, and likes slapping the little
woman around for sport will NOT like a Latin woman! You'd be likely to wake
up in incredible pain with your penis in your mouth, and your testicles in
Toledo.
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces. Come on, Joe Sixpack
is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to their wives, but, you miss the
point.
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament department.
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep with.
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are spoiled and
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as they
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as well. I
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women. You are
selling too hard.
ozzman
2004-07-04 09:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
You always have to do your homework - spend time knowing her
background
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
before hooking up with her
That might apply to you and I, but not to the desperately sex
starved.
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Besides there are no Private Investigation agencies that can or will
give
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
you such information in the old eastern bloc.
This applies to anyone with a brain. It's the first thing he
should know before he goes out looking, and it can be pretty much
handled by himself. If he feels he has to hire a PI, then he has
to be resourceful to get one. Otherwise he's on his own.
Look Oz, HORNEY men SELDOM think before they plug in.
then that's their own damn fault, and I dont care. Youre
making this more complicated than it is - it's your responsiblity
to find out who's right for you and to do the spadework youself,
is my point.
Post by ozzman
Where do you hire
a PI in Moscow?? Yellow pages? How many are listed?
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an erection has
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean realize
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a catch!
I never said there wasn't, which is why I said you have to do
some digging around before you settle with one particular chick.
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces.
If I were twice divorced from American females, I sure would
without apology or hesitation. Whether as wives or even just as
acquaintances, American females are simply low-quality humans
when compared to other foreign females - there's just no
comparison.
Post by ozzman
Come on, Joe Sixpack
is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to their wives, but, you miss the
point.
No, *YOU* did - THAT'S why I said the kind of guy you were
talking about above was none of my business.
Post by ozzman
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament department.
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep with.
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are spoiled and
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as they
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as well. I
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women. You are
selling too hard.
I've sold NOTHING - I never said to go out and find a Russian
woman. I said that's up to the guy - let the buyer beware and
let him choose from a set of options waht he feels is right (or
not right) for him. So FUCK that bullshit about me "selling too
hard." And I would NEVER put blind faith in anything. Everyone
has to be careful and in order to do what he feels is right for
himself, or will most make him happy. And that involves a bit of
effort and common sense, NOT "blind faith."
krp
2004-07-04 15:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
This applies to anyone with a brain. It's the first thing he
should know before he goes out looking, and it can be pretty much
handled by himself. If he feels he has to hire a PI, then he has
to be resourceful to get one. Otherwise he's on his own.
Look Oz, HORNEY men SELDOM think before they plug in.
then that's their own damn fault, and I dont care. Youre
making this more complicated than it is - it's your responsiblity
to find out who's right for you and to do the spadework youself,
is my point.
No you are over simplifying. The problem is, your stary-eyed hard sell
on Russian women aside, is that it almost impossible to do that "spade work"
in any of the former eastern bloc nations. In many ways Russia is like the
wild west. There are not hundreds of PI's listen in the Moscow phone book,
and that is considering that you'd even be lucky enough to find a Moscow
phone book. They don't yet have a "Yellow Pages" as such. This isn't
Phiadelphia we are talking about. And if you think you will find the
"truth" with a predatory woman, you're sadly mistaken. If you think the
State Department will help you, you are delusional. You will find NO group
on the face of the Earth that hates Americans more than the State
Department, not even Al Queda hates us as much as our own State Department!
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an erection has
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean realize
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a catch!
I never said there wasn't, which is why I said you have to do
some digging around before you settle with one particular chick.
Where does a guy "DIG" in a place where NO infrastructure exists to do
that? In Chicago, publioc records can tell you the last time a woman took a
carp, how much it weighed and how bad it stunk! There is NO such thing in
Russia! You are rationalizing. That does not mean all Russian women are
evil, it just means that IF that Russian woman turns out to be (using YOUR
terminology) a "bitch" you face an exponential increase in problems. I get
calls almost every day from men whose "RUSSIAN" wives have accused them of
Domestic Violence shortly after arriving. Did you know that doing that gives
the Russian woman an AUTOMATIC green card????? Tell you, THEY know it! You
are so damn niave, and that's okay. You are HARD SELLING to other guys they
they just walk in to this idea that RUSSIAN WOMEN are great... And some
ARE........ My wife is Cuban, but anyone who thinks that there are no
predatory Cuban women is also NUTS! In Cuba they have a name for those
women..."jinetearas" .... In ANY relations with a foreigner you are always
on your own the same as you would be with an American woman, only with
greatly added complications. We do not live in an insular world. the word
gets out.

So that we cut the shit here... My wife is a judicial employee, without
discussing her exact job so my STALKERS can't play with it, some of our
discussion is her puzzlement with our laws here and just how HATE FILLED
they are toward men. Yes EVEN in Cuba, women KNOW initmately just how
anti-male our laws are and the predatory ones know PRECISELY how to take the
maximum advantage of them! The truth is that Russian women are for many
reasons not free from the same cancer any other group of women are. Not to
mention the immaturity of some Russian women who may have good intentions at
the beginning. I know first hand dealing with cultural differences, and the
culture of my wife and mine are much closer than with a Russian woman.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces.
If I were twice divorced from American females, I sure would
without apology or hesitation. Whether as wives or even just as
acquaintances, American females are simply low-quality humans
when compared to other foreign females - there's just no
comparison.
You see, that's you, it is not me. I dearly loved my first wife and she
loved me. The problem was one that could not be corrected, a problem with
drugs and alcohol, and she was once violent drunk. She was a great woman and
oh how she could love. But.......... she could never shake the monkey. She
tried. She was clean when we met and for the first year we were married.
Then old friends got her back into the "life." I had NO experience with that
scene, so I tried for a couple more years and 3 babies to deal with it. She
had a really messed up childhood, none of which I knew about until well
after we were married. She was also drop dead gorgeous when we were married.
My second wife also had a dysfunctional childhood, but was much smarter and
better educated. The marriage was really good until a mid life crisis hit
her. The sad thing is you can't force somebody to get psychological help
just because they have snapped and now are a different person where they
turn on their family, church and life and want to go 90 degrees in a
different direction. When they come to their senses and straighten out it
is too late.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on, Joe Sixpack is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to their
wives, but, you miss the
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
point.
No, *YOU* did - THAT'S why I said the kind of guy you were talking about
above was none of my business.

But you are "HARD SELLING" to many Joe Sixpack types in these forums,
and to many very vulnerable men who have been betrayed so fundamentally, who
are hurting in the soul, and leading them into a blind alley. Just signing
up a foreign bride isn't always the best answer for these guys. ALLL and I
do mean ALL of the infrastructure for divorce recovery is aimed at women and
is HOSTILE to men! 100% of the effort of it is when they reluctantly deal
with men, it is to drill into them all the things wrong that THEY did and
why they are worthless shit! Men in the existing programs become little more
than punching bags for angry women who run the programs or self loathing
accomplice males who express their virility (such as they have) by beating
up men who MUST submit to their abuse.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament department.
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep with.
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are spoiled and
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as they
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as well. I
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women. You are
selling too hard.
I've sold NOTHING - I never said to go out and find a Russian woman.
Sorry guy, you are not just selling, you are using the HARD SELL.. Let's
look at the above subject header.. "Russian woman- a far better experience
for American Men" that sir, whether you admit it or not is the HARD HARD
SELL!
Post by ozzman
I said that's up to the guy - let the buyer beware and
let him choose from a set of options waht he feels is right (or
not right) for him. So FUCK that bullshit about me "selling too
hard." And I would NEVER put blind faith in anything. Everyone
has to be careful and in order to do what he feels is right for
himself, or will most make him happy. And that involves a bit of
effort and common sense, NOT "blind faith."
I don't care how angry you get. You never gave "let the buyer beware"
even lip service until I challenged you, until then it was all utopia and
bashing American women. Not that I am defending American women because they
richly deserve being called on their selfish behavior. What YOU put blind
faith in is not the issue it is what you suggest to others.

Young man, and your writing suggests you are well under 40, ANY time a
man hooks up with a woman (or a woman with a man for that matter) it is
always a gamble. You gamble that appearances are not deception. That you are
actually buying what you think you are seeing. With a divorce rate in the
60+% range, it's fair to say that most of the time it isn't. Love is blind
and an erection makes men stupid.

I worked many years with a very wise professor at a major University
learning my trade. One of the things he often stated, in response to the
problems we men find ourselves in, is the explanatiuon that our problems are
caused by an inadequate blood supply. When we see a beautiful woman all the
blood in the brain drains to the penis and we get stupid. There is much more
truth to that than almost all of us are willing to admit.

That applies to this is that you foolishly argue that men should do
spade work that they really can't do anyway. That it caveat emptorer, and it
is with ANY woman, and women assume the same risk. Oz.............. the
world over, marriage has lost almost ALL of its meaning! This isn't just a
problem in America, even in most of the Latin world, people trade spouses
like they do watches. Many Catholic countries are staggering with high
divorce rates because we have thrown away the rules in society! IF IT FEELS
GOOD - DO IT! IF IT FEELS REALLY GOOD - DO IT ALL YOU CAN!!! There are no
rules today. It is the ME generation's spawn. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!
And we have in particular spoiled women. When a man finds a woman who is NOT
living 100% for herself, he has struck the mother load. Can he find it with
a Russian woman? Yes. He can also find it with an American woman. BUT if you
look at the odds, you can find them better with women who have strong
values. Nationality is meaningless.

I'd also say that IF you want to find the right woman, you must remember
that YOU must also be the right man!
ozzman
2004-07-05 23:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
This applies to anyone with a brain. It's the first thing he
should know before he goes out looking, and it can be pretty much
handled by himself. If he feels he has to hire a PI, then he has
to be resourceful to get one. Otherwise he's on his own.
Look Oz, HORNEY men SELDOM think before they plug in.
then that's their own damn fault, and I dont care. Youre
making this more complicated than it is - it's your responsiblity
to find out who's right for you and to do the spadework youself,
is my point.
No you are over simplifying. The problem is, your stary-eyed hard sell
on Russian women aside, is that it almost impossible to do that "spade work"
in any of the former eastern bloc nations. In many ways Russia is like the
wild west. There are not hundreds of PI's listen in the Moscow phone book,
and that is considering that you'd even be lucky enough to find a Moscow
phone book. They don't yet have a "Yellow Pages" as such. This isn't
Phiadelphia we are talking about. And if you think you will find the
"truth" with a predatory woman, you're sadly mistaken. If you think the
State Department will help you, you are delusional. You will find NO group
on the face of the Earth that hates Americans more than the State
Department, not even Al Queda hates us as much as our own State Department!
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an erection
has
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean
realize
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a catch!
I never said there wasn't, which is why I said you have to do
some digging around before you settle with one particular chick.
Where does a guy "DIG" in a place where NO infrastructure exists to do
that? In Chicago, publioc records can tell you the last time a woman took a
carp, how much it weighed and how bad it stunk! There is NO such thing in
Russia! You are rationalizing. That does not mean all Russian women are
evil, it just means that IF that Russian woman turns out to be (using YOUR
terminology) a "bitch" you face an exponential increase in problems. I get
calls almost every day from men whose "RUSSIAN" wives have accused them of
Domestic Violence shortly after arriving. Did you know that doing that gives
the Russian woman an AUTOMATIC green card????? Tell you, THEY know it! You
are so damn niave, and that's okay. You are HARD SELLING to other guys they
they just walk in to this idea that RUSSIAN WOMEN are great... And some
ARE........ My wife is Cuban, but anyone who thinks that there are no
predatory Cuban women is also NUTS! In Cuba they have a name for those
women..."jinetearas" .... In ANY relations with a foreigner you are always
on your own the same as you would be with an American woman, only with
greatly added complications. We do not live in an insular world. the word
gets out.
So that we cut the shit here... My wife is a judicial employee, without
discussing her exact job so my STALKERS can't play with it, some of our
discussion is her puzzlement with our laws here and just how HATE FILLED
they are toward men. Yes EVEN in Cuba, women KNOW initmately just how
anti-male our laws are and the predatory ones know PRECISELY how to take the
maximum advantage of them! The truth is that Russian women are for many
reasons not free from the same cancer any other group of women are. Not to
mention the immaturity of some Russian women who may have good intentions at
the beginning. I know first hand dealing with cultural differences, and the
culture of my wife and mine are much closer than with a Russian woman.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces.
If I were twice divorced from American females, I sure would
without apology or hesitation. Whether as wives or even just as
acquaintances, American females are simply low-quality humans
when compared to other foreign females - there's just no
comparison.
You see, that's you, it is not me. I dearly loved my first wife and she
loved me. The problem was one that could not be corrected, a problem with
drugs and alcohol, and she was once violent drunk. She was a great woman and
oh how she could love. But.......... she could never shake the monkey. She
tried. She was clean when we met and for the first year we were married.
Then old friends got her back into the "life." I had NO experience with that
scene, so I tried for a couple more years and 3 babies to deal with it. She
had a really messed up childhood, none of which I knew about until well
after we were married. She was also drop dead gorgeous when we were married.
My second wife also had a dysfunctional childhood, but was much smarter and
better educated. The marriage was really good until a mid life crisis hit
her. The sad thing is you can't force somebody to get psychological help
just because they have snapped and now are a different person where they
turn on their family, church and life and want to go 90 degrees in a
different direction. When they come to their senses and straighten out it
is too late.
Sorry to hear about that - all the more reason not to marry
American females. Especially physically attractive ones are
alwasy suspect - upon closer inspection the allure of US female
beauty quickly dissipates.
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on, Joe Sixpack is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to their
wives, but, you miss the
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
point.
No, *YOU* did - THAT'S why I said the kind of guy you were talking about
above was none of my business.
But you are "HARD SELLING" to many Joe Sixpack types in these forums,
and to many very vulnerable men who have been betrayed so fundamentally, who
are hurting in the soul, and leading them into a blind alley. Just signing
up a foreign bride isn't always the best answer for these guys. ALLL and I
do mean ALL of the infrastructure for divorce recovery is aimed at women and
is HOSTILE to men! 100% of the effort of it is when they reluctantly deal
with men, it is to drill into them all the things wrong that THEY did and
why they are worthless shit! Men in the existing programs become little more
than punching bags for angry women who run the programs or self loathing
accomplice males who express their virility (such as they have) by beating
up men who MUST submit to their abuse.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament
department.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep with.
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are spoiled
and
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as they
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as well.
I
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women. You are
selling too hard.
I've sold NOTHING - I never said to go out and find a Russian woman.
Sorry guy, you are not just selling, you are using the HARD SELL.. Let's
look at the above subject header.. "Russian woman- a far better experience
for American Men" that sir, whether you admit it or not is the HARD HARD
SELL!
err,hate to break this to you but you're barking up the wrong
tree. Not that I disagree with the subject line, but I didn't
start this thread. So, I've sold nothing.
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
I said that's up to the guy - let the buyer beware and
let him choose from a set of options waht he feels is right (or
not right) for him. So FUCK that bullshit about me "selling too
hard." And I would NEVER put blind faith in anything. Everyone
has to be careful and in order to do what he feels is right for
himself, or will most make him happy. And that involves a bit of
effort and common sense, NOT "blind faith."
I don't care how angry you get. You never gave "let the buyer beware"
even lip service until I challenged you, until then it was all utopia and
bashing American women. Not that I am defending American women because they
richly deserve being called on their selfish behavior. What YOU put blind
faith in is not the issue it is what you suggest to others.
Young man, and your writing suggests you are well under 40, ANY time a
man hooks up with a woman (or a woman with a man for that matter) it is
always a gamble. You gamble that appearances are not deception. That you are
actually buying what you think you are seeing. With a divorce rate in the
60+% range, it's fair to say that most of the time it isn't. Love is blind
and an erection makes men stupid.
I worked many years with a very wise professor at a major University
learning my trade. One of the things he often stated, in response to the
problems we men find ourselves in, is the explanatiuon that our problems are
caused by an inadequate blood supply. When we see a beautiful woman all the
blood in the brain drains to the penis and we get stupid. There is much more
truth to that than almost all of us are willing to admit.
That applies to this is that you foolishly argue that men should do
spade work that they really can't do anyway. That it caveat emptorer, and it
is with ANY woman, and women assume the same risk. Oz.............. the
world over, marriage has lost almost ALL of its meaning! This isn't just a
problem in America, even in most of the Latin world, people trade spouses
like they do watches. Many Catholic countries are staggering with high
divorce rates because we have thrown away the rules in society! IF IT FEELS
GOOD - DO IT! IF IT FEELS REALLY GOOD - DO IT ALL YOU CAN!!! There are no
rules today. It is the ME generation's spawn. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!
And we have in particular spoiled women. When a man finds a woman who is NOT
living 100% for herself, he has struck the mother load. Can he find it with
a Russian woman? Yes. He can also find it with an American woman. BUT if you
look at the odds, you can find them better with women who have strong
values. Nationality is meaningless.
I don't see strong values learned or reinforced in women in the
US. OTOH I do see it in other countries generally, especially
in poorer or less developed ones. Women there are generaly not
greedy, they value personality and devotion rather than
advancement or materialism, which has a very pleasant effect on
their attitudes towards men. So I don't entirely agree that
nationality is meaningless. In fact, that many American men are
renouncing females here BECAUSE they are Americans, and because
there are other nationalities in which strong values are
instilled in women shows how meaningful nationality still is.

There's no guarantee wherever you go, and I suppose you might
find some decent American women here and there with strong
values. But I wouldn't waste time finding water in the Sahara
either. Sure, I might find an oasis, but I'd rather go to a
climate where water is much more plentiful.
Post by krp
I'd also say that IF you want to find the right woman, you must remember
that YOU must also be the right man!
krp
2004-07-06 13:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
This applies to anyone with a brain. It's the first thing he
should know before he goes out looking, and it can be pretty much
handled by himself. If he feels he has to hire a PI, then he has
to be resourceful to get one. Otherwise he's on his own.
Look Oz, HORNEY men SELDOM think before they plug in.
then that's their own damn fault, and I dont care. Youre
making this more complicated than it is - it's your responsiblity
to find out who's right for you and to do the spadework youself,
is my point.
No you are over simplifying. The problem is, your stary-eyed hard sell
on Russian women aside, is that it almost impossible to do that "spade work"
in any of the former eastern bloc nations. In many ways Russia is like the
wild west. There are not hundreds of PI's listen in the Moscow phone book,
and that is considering that you'd even be lucky enough to find a Moscow
phone book. They don't yet have a "Yellow Pages" as such. This isn't
Phiadelphia we are talking about. And if you think you will find the
"truth" with a predatory woman, you're sadly mistaken. If you think the
State Department will help you, you are delusional. You will find NO group
on the face of the Earth that hates Americans more than the State
Department, not even Al Queda hates us as much as our own State Department!
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an
erection has
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean realize
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a catch!
I never said there wasn't, which is why I said you have to do
some digging around before you settle with one particular chick.
Where does a guy "DIG" in a place where NO infrastructure exists to do
that? In Chicago, publioc records can tell you the last time a woman took a
carp, how much it weighed and how bad it stunk! There is NO such thing in
Russia! You are rationalizing. That does not mean all Russian women are
evil, it just means that IF that Russian woman turns out to be (using YOUR
terminology) a "bitch" you face an exponential increase in problems. I get
calls almost every day from men whose "RUSSIAN" wives have accused them of
Domestic Violence shortly after arriving. Did you know that doing that gives
the Russian woman an AUTOMATIC green card????? Tell you, THEY know it! You
are so damn niave, and that's okay. You are HARD SELLING to other guys they
they just walk in to this idea that RUSSIAN WOMEN are great... And some
ARE........ My wife is Cuban, but anyone who thinks that there are no
predatory Cuban women is also NUTS! In Cuba they have a name for those
women..."jinetearas" .... In ANY relations with a foreigner you are always
on your own the same as you would be with an American woman, only with
greatly added complications. We do not live in an insular world. the word
gets out.
So that we cut the shit here... My wife is a judicial employee, without
discussing her exact job so my STALKERS can't play with it, some of our
discussion is her puzzlement with our laws here and just how HATE FILLED
they are toward men. Yes EVEN in Cuba, women KNOW initmately just how
anti-male our laws are and the predatory ones know PRECISELY how to take the
maximum advantage of them! The truth is that Russian women are for many
reasons not free from the same cancer any other group of women are. Not to
mention the immaturity of some Russian women who may have good intentions at
the beginning. I know first hand dealing with cultural differences, and the
culture of my wife and mine are much closer than with a Russian woman.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces.
If I were twice divorced from American females, I sure would
without apology or hesitation. Whether as wives or even just as
acquaintances, American females are simply low-quality humans
when compared to other foreign females - there's just no
comparison.
You see, that's you, it is not me. I dearly loved my first wife and she
loved me. The problem was one that could not be corrected, a problem with
drugs and alcohol, and she was once violent drunk. She was a great woman and
oh how she could love. But.......... she could never shake the monkey. She
tried. She was clean when we met and for the first year we were married.
Then old friends got her back into the "life." I had NO experience with that
scene, so I tried for a couple more years and 3 babies to deal with it. She
had a really messed up childhood, none of which I knew about until well
after we were married. She was also drop dead gorgeous when we were married.
My second wife also had a dysfunctional childhood, but was much smarter and
better educated. The marriage was really good until a mid life crisis hit
her. The sad thing is you can't force somebody to get psychological help
just because they have snapped and now are a different person where they
turn on their family, church and life and want to go 90 degrees in a
different direction. When they come to their senses and straighten out it
is too late.
Sorry to hear about that - all the more reason not to marry
American females. Especially physically attractive ones are
alwasy suspect - upon closer inspection the allure of US female
beauty quickly dissipates.
I would have gone for another American woman, but I got introduced to my
Cuban wife before that happened. Unlike you I have nothing against American
women, other than the mental problem radical feminism has inflicted on them
of hating being women. Feminism has been selling women that they need to be
men for more than a century. So it is more problematic finding a non
infected woman in America. Also I find that Cuban women are dogged in their
devotion to family, and being a honest wife. A Cuban woman doesn't love with
reservation or conflicted interests. She gives her heart and soul
completely. No games.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on, Joe Sixpack is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to
their wives, but, you miss the
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
point.
No, *YOU* did - THAT'S why I said the kind of guy you were talking about
above was none of my business.
But you are "HARD SELLING" to many Joe Sixpack types in these forums,
and to many very vulnerable men who have been betrayed so fundamentally, who
are hurting in the soul, and leading them into a blind alley. Just signing
up a foreign bride isn't always the best answer for these guys. ALLL and I
do mean ALL of the infrastructure for divorce recovery is aimed at women and
is HOSTILE to men! 100% of the effort of it is when they reluctantly deal
with men, it is to drill into them all the things wrong that THEY did and
why they are worthless shit! Men in the existing programs become little more
than punching bags for angry women who run the programs or self loathing
accomplice males who express their virility (such as they have) by beating
up men who MUST submit to their abuse.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament
department.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep with.
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are spoiled
and
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as they
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as well.
I
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women. You are
selling too hard.
I've sold NOTHING - I never said to go out and find a Russian woman.
Sorry guy, you are not just selling, you are using the HARD SELL.. Let's
look at the above subject header.. "Russian woman- a far better experience
for American Men" that sir, whether you admit it or not is the HARD HARD
SELL!
err,hate to break this to you but you're barking up the wrong
tree. Not that I disagree with the subject line, but I didn't
start this thread. So, I've sold nothing.
You try to sell Russian women. There are nice Russian women, but they
have their own agenda.issues. It still rates as the hard sell.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
I said that's up to the guy - let the buyer beware and
let him choose from a set of options waht he feels is right (or
not right) for him. So FUCK that bullshit about me "selling too
hard." And I would NEVER put blind faith in anything. Everyone
has to be careful and in order to do what he feels is right for
himself, or will most make him happy. And that involves a bit of
effort and common sense, NOT "blind faith."
I don't care how angry you get. You never gave "let the buyer beware"
even lip service until I challenged you, until then it was all utopia and
bashing American women. Not that I am defending American women because they
richly deserve being called on their selfish behavior. What YOU put blind
faith in is not the issue it is what you suggest to others.
Young man, and your writing suggests you are well under 40, ANY time a
man hooks up with a woman (or a woman with a man for that matter) it is
always a gamble. You gamble that appearances are not deception. That you are
actually buying what you think you are seeing. With a divorce rate in the
60+% range, it's fair to say that most of the time it isn't. Love is blind
and an erection makes men stupid.
I worked many years with a very wise professor at a major University
learning my trade. One of the things he often stated, in response to the
problems we men find ourselves in, is the explanatiuon that our problems are
caused by an inadequate blood supply. When we see a beautiful woman all the
blood in the brain drains to the penis and we get stupid. There is much more
truth to that than almost all of us are willing to admit.
That applies to this is that you foolishly argue that men should do
spade work that they really can't do anyway. That it caveat emptorer, and it
is with ANY woman, and women assume the same risk. Oz.............. the
world over, marriage has lost almost ALL of its meaning! This isn't just a
problem in America, even in most of the Latin world, people trade spouses
like they do watches. Many Catholic countries are staggering with high
divorce rates because we have thrown away the rules in society! IF IT FEELS
GOOD - DO IT! IF IT FEELS REALLY GOOD - DO IT ALL YOU CAN!!! There are no
rules today. It is the ME generation's spawn. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!
And we have in particular spoiled women. When a man finds a woman who is NOT
living 100% for herself, he has struck the mother load. Can he find it with
a Russian woman? Yes. He can also find it with an American woman. BUT if you
look at the odds, you can find them better with women who have strong
values. Nationality is meaningless.
I don't see strong values learned or reinforced in women in the
US. OTOH I do see it in other countries generally, especially
in poorer or less developed ones. Women there are generaly not
greedy, they value personality and devotion rather than
advancement or materialism, which has a very pleasant effect on
their attitudes towards men. So I don't entirely agree that
nationality is meaningless. In fact, that many American men are
renouncing females here BECAUSE they are Americans, and because
there are other nationalities in which strong values are
instilled in women shows how meaningful nationality still is.
America has abandoned its values. That includes American men. ANy
remaining values, the ACLU has lawsuits in the wings to abolish! I think you
don't understand American women. They want the same things deep down, but we
have a society that is dominated by the ANTI-value crowd. Radical feminism
is in the business of breeding misery. It has sold women on a destructive
path, not just in America but all over the globe. It is virulently
anti-family, and steeped in visceral hatred for the male gender. Everything
they write drips with hatred for men. It oozes out of every pore of their
bodies. Most women reject that insanity, however, thanks to the ACLU and
extremist judges, they must live with it as you and I do. What is needed is
an effort to thow out activist judges who want to overturn America.
Post by ozzman
There's no guarantee wherever you go, and I suppose you might
find some decent American women here and there with strong
values. But I wouldn't waste time finding water in the Sahara
either. Sure, I might find an oasis, but I'd rather go to a
climate where water is much more plentiful.
There are more good decent women in America by far than you realize.
There are the oasis' in even the Sahara. I am not sure it is quite that bad.
The whole society, including men, is that we have the ME generation running
things. If men have strong values why do they vote so relularly for those
who HATE those values? Why do they surrender?

I did not want a "dependant" in a wife. I did not want a docile porch
mat. I can assure you that Latin women are NEVER that! They do offer
something missing in many American women, the ability to give complete
unconditional love. But I dare their husband not to reciprocate in kind.
hvatum
2004-07-05 03:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
You always have to do your homework - spend time knowing her
background
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
before hooking up with her
That might apply to you and I, but not to the desperately sex
starved.
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Besides there are no Private Investigation agencies that can or will
give
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
you such information in the old eastern bloc.
This applies to anyone with a brain. It's the first thing he
should know before he goes out looking, and it can be pretty much
handled by himself. If he feels he has to hire a PI, then he has
to be resourceful to get one. Otherwise he's on his own.
Look Oz, HORNEY men SELDOM think before they plug in.
then that's their own damn fault, and I dont care. Youre
making this more complicated than it is - it's your responsiblity
to find out who's right for you and to do the spadework youself,
is my point.
I completely agree. No need to make generalizations about all of the
men going to russia. Doing a good job is up to him.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Where do you hire
a PI in Moscow?? Yellow pages? How many are listed?
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an erection has
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean realize
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a catch!
I never said there wasn't, which is why I said you have to do
some digging around before you settle with one particular chick.
Obviously. I would actually say most men realize that if it looks to
good to be true that it isn't. That's why the relationships often last
for extended periods of time before a man settles for one particular
russian woman. Simple market dynamics dictate that it is easier for a
man to find a dependable loving wife in Russia than in the US (There
are few men interested in doing this in the US, and many women in
Russia). They just need to carefully screen some of them out (A quick
starter tip, the gold digger types will stear you towards the more
expensive restraunts in the City. The caring loving types will tell
you not to waste your money on a restraunt and invite you to have some
food at their apartment.)
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces.
If I were twice divorced from American females, I sure would
without apology or hesitation. Whether as wives or even just as
acquaintances, American females are simply low-quality humans
when compared to other foreign females - there's just no
comparison.
Agreed. Even Germans I dated played fewer head games than any US woman
I have yet dated, and I dated one US woman whom anyone would consider
very level headed and caring.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on, Joe Sixpack
is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to their wives, but, you miss the
point.
No, *YOU* did - THAT'S why I said the kind of guy you were
talking about above was none of my business.
Post by krp
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament department.
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep with.
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are spoiled and
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as they
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as well. I
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women. You are
selling too hard.
I've sold NOTHING - I never said to go out and find a Russian
woman. I said that's up to the guy - let the buyer beware and
let him choose from a set of options waht he feels is right (or
not right) for him. So FUCK that bullshit about me "selling too
hard." And I would NEVER put blind faith in anything. Everyone
has to be careful and in order to do what he feels is right for
himself, or will most make him happy. And that involves a bit of
effort and common sense, NOT "blind faith."
Agreed.
avenger
2004-07-05 06:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
You always have to do your homework - spend time knowing her
background
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
before hooking up with her
That might apply to you and I, but not to the desperately sex
starved.
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
Besides there are no Private Investigation agencies that can or will
give
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
you such information in the old eastern bloc.
Nonsense, there are plenty of agencies and free lancers who will spy for you
at cheap rates. And it's about as reliable as any information a US detective
would obtain.
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
This applies to anyone with a brain. It's the first thing he
should know before he goes out looking, and it can be pretty much
handled by himself. If he feels he has to hire a PI, then he has
to be resourceful to get one. Otherwise he's on his own.
Look Oz, HORNEY men SELDOM think before they plug in.
then that's their own damn fault, and I dont care. Youre
making this more complicated than it is - it's your responsiblity
to find out who's right for you and to do the spadework youself,
is my point.
I completely agree. No need to make generalizations about all of the
men going to russia. Doing a good job is up to him.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Where do you hire
a PI in Moscow?? Yellow pages? How many are listed?
What do you want to do? I'll give you a name of husband and wife who will
get the info you want.
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an erection has
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean realize
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a catch!
So how is this different from the typical US bitch who inflates her value
and probably has a lot more to hide?
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
I never said there wasn't, which is why I said you have to do
some digging around before you settle with one particular chick.
Obviously. I would actually say most men realize that if it looks to
good to be true that it isn't. That's why the relationships often last
for extended periods of time before a man settles for one particular
russian woman. Simple market dynamics dictate that it is easier for a
man to find a dependable loving wife in Russia than in the US (There
are few men interested in doing this in the US, and many women in
Russia). They just need to carefully screen some of them out (A quick
starter tip, the gold digger types will stear you towards the more
expensive restraunts in the City. The caring loving types will tell
you not to waste your money on a restraunt and invite you to have some
food at their apartment.)
But this is good advice regardless of where the woman is from.
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Post by ozzman
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces.
If I were twice divorced from American females, I sure would
without apology or hesitation. Whether as wives or even just as
acquaintances, American females are simply low-quality humans
when compared to other foreign females - there's just no
comparison.
Agreed. Even Germans I dated played fewer head games than any US woman
I have yet dated, and I dated one US woman whom anyone would consider
very level headed and caring.
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
Come on, Joe Sixpack
is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to their wives, but, you miss the
point.
No, *YOU* did - THAT'S why I said the kind of guy you were
talking about above was none of my business.
Post by krp
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament department.
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep with.
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are spoiled and
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as they
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as well. I
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women.
Of course there are many bad Russian women! But the "average" US woman has a
bad attitude and thinks she's god's gift to men. She's been brainwashed and
spoiled. Even wealthy Russian women who have been pampered have a better and
more natural relationship to men. BTW, everything that exists in the US,
also exists in Russia. Child support etc. The difference is that in the US
men are persecuted with unreasonable demands for money and the
responsibility is all one sided in favour of the woman.





You are
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Post by krp
selling too hard.
I've sold NOTHING - I never said to go out and find a Russian
woman. I said that's up to the guy - let the buyer beware and
let him choose from a set of options waht he feels is right (or
not right) for him. So FUCK that bullshit about me "selling too
hard." And I would NEVER put blind faith in anything. Everyone
has to be careful and in order to do what he feels is right for
himself, or will most make him happy. And that involves a bit of
effort and common sense, NOT "blind faith."
Agreed.
KRP
2004-07-05 12:16:47 UTC
Permalink
"avenger" <***@avengers.co.uk> wrote in message news:bQ6Gc.6280$***@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...

Besides there are no Private Investigation agencies that can or will give
you such information in the old eastern bloc.
Post by avenger
Nonsense, there are plenty of agencies and free lancers who will spy for you
at cheap rates. And it's about as reliable as any information a US detective
would obtain.
There are? List some.
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Where do you hire a PI in Moscow?? Yellow pages? How many are
listed?
Post by avenger
What do you want to do? I'll give you a name of husband and wife who will
get the info you want.

Maybe they need to create a website for that service. The men going to
Russia that I have spoken to could find no such service. And the "agencies"
certainly did not vet any of the women.
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an erection has
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean realize
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a catch!
So how is this different from the typical US bitch who inflates her value
and probably has a lot more to hide?

The difference is that today you can easily find out anything you want
on American women. Such as finding out things like arrests for drunk and
disorderly (generally NOT a great sign for a relationship) or the number of
police reports she has filed. You can find out what her childhood was like.
All big indicators of the chances for a marriage. Most men never get past
the tits!
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
I never said there wasn't, which is why I said you have to do
some digging around before you settle with one particular chick.
Obviously. I would actually say most men realize that if it looks to
good to be true that it isn't. That's why the relationships often last
for extended periods of time before a man settles for one particular
russian woman. Simple market dynamics dictate that it is easier for a
man to find a dependable loving wife in Russia than in the US (There
are few men interested in doing this in the US, and many women in
Russia). They just need to carefully screen some of them out (A quick
starter tip, the gold digger types will stear you towards the more
expensive restraunts in the City. The caring loving types will tell
you not to waste your money on a restraunt and invite you to have some
food at their apartment.)
But this is good advice regardless of where the woman is from.
The point is that complete and reliable information is easier to obtain
in the US, where it is almost impossible in the Eastern Bloc nations.
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces.
If I were twice divorced from American females, I sure would
without apology or hesitation. Whether as wives or even just as
acquaintances, American females are simply low-quality humans
when compared to other foreign females - there's just no
comparison.
Agreed. Even Germans I dated played fewer head games than any US woman
I have yet dated, and I dated one US woman whom anyone would consider
very level headed and caring.
Post by ozzman
Come on, Joe Sixpack
is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to their wives, but, you
miss
Post by avenger
the
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
point.
No, *YOU* did - THAT'S why I said the kind of guy you were
talking about above was none of my business.
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament
department.
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep
with.
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are
spoiled and
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as they
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as
well. I
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women.
Of course there are many bad Russian women! But the "average" US woman has a
bad attitude and thinks she's god's gift to men. She's been brainwashed and
spoiled. Even wealthy Russian women who have been pampered have a better and
more natural relationship to men. BTW, everything that exists in the US,
also exists in Russia. Child support etc. The difference is that in the US
men are persecuted with unreasonable demands for money and the
responsibility is all one sided in favour of the woman.
The average American woman is a spoiled brat full of herself, I grant
you guys that. They missed several good spankings when they were children. I
would be the first to agree that American women are a problem. The first
problem is that they HATE being women! To the American woman that means
being inferior or some twisted mental image of being inferior in their
minds. Therefore they are in a constant state of WAR with men. Marriage is
just hand to hand combat to too many American women. SO to American women
they rarely ENJOY marriage. They also feel that it is OUR DUTY to entertain
them and do their bidding and to be interesting. When our middle starts
filling in they want a "STUD" which is why more women today are engaging in
adultery than men. They seem to forget that their tits now sag to their
kneecaps and their beautiful ass had a blowout. Most of the men I know were
not out shopping for a replacement. Sure some good a little "strange stuff"
but unlike women, men typically don't get attached to the one night stands.

Oh the Russian courts also have very little to no regard to issues like
visitation and move-aways. Men just don't get custody in Russia, and if you
make babies with a Russian woman and she goes back to mother Russia, kiss
EVER seeing your kids again if she doesn't want you to! You think OUR courts
are bad?
avenger
2004-07-05 13:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Besides there are no Private Investigation agencies that can or will give
you such information in the old eastern bloc.
Post by avenger
Nonsense, there are plenty of agencies and free lancers who will spy for
you
Post by avenger
at cheap rates. And it's about as reliable as any information a US
detective
Post by avenger
would obtain.
There are? List some.
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Where do you hire a PI in Moscow?? Yellow pages? How many are
listed?
Post by avenger
What do you want to do? I'll give you a name of husband and wife who will
get the info you want.
Maybe they need to create a website for that service. The men going to
Russia that I have spoken to could find no such service. And the "agencies"
certainly did not vet any of the women.
If the men were in Russia they can do it themselves. I was referring to
people who will check out a woman before you even go to meet her.Fewer than
1% of Russia women marry outside Russia which is lower than other countries
and very few want to leave Russia unless they are from a very poor area. No
different that a girl from Appalachia wanting to go to NY or Cal. Women from
Moscow, Peterburg hardly ever want to leave.
Post by krp
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Come on guy. You operate blind on faith and instinct, but an
erection has
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
little instinct. Many of the Russian babes are gorgeous. Few mean
realize
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
that if it looks too good to be ture IT ISN'T! There's ALWAYS a
catch!
Post by avenger
So how is this different from the typical US bitch who inflates her value
and probably has a lot more to hide?
The difference is that today you can easily find out anything you want
on American women.
What if she's changed her name? This is done at the county level and as far
as I know there is no reliable central data base besides she can change it t
wice at 2 different locations. Think you can really trace that?
While Russia has really detailed information on its citizens.





Such as finding out things like arrests for drunk and
Post by krp
disorderly (generally NOT a great sign for a relationship) or the number of
police reports she has filed. You can find out what her childhood was like.
If she's using her real name and if you know the locality where it occurred.
What do you do check every police department in the US and hope you get the
right answers?
Post by krp
All big indicators of the chances for a marriage. Most men never get past
the tits!
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
I never said there wasn't, which is why I said you have to do
some digging around before you settle with one particular chick.
Obviously. I would actually say most men realize that if it looks to
good to be true that it isn't. That's why the relationships often last
for extended periods of time before a man settles for one particular
russian woman. Simple market dynamics dictate that it is easier for a
man to find a dependable loving wife in Russia than in the US (There
are few men interested in doing this in the US, and many women in
Russia). They just need to carefully screen some of them out (A quick
starter tip, the gold digger types will stear you towards the more
expensive restraunts in the City. The caring loving types will tell
you not to waste your money on a restraunt and invite you to have some
food at their apartment.)
But this is good advice regardless of where the woman is from.
The point is that complete and reliable information is easier to obtain
in the US, where it is almost impossible in the Eastern Bloc nations.
That's not true. It's much easier to change your identity in the US and hide
any past information on your life.
Post by krp
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Post by ozzman
First, I would call American women "bitches" based on personal
experience, and the fact that I am going out of my way to find a
women thousands of miles away in a foreign country, when there
are many Ameirican bitches around me right now. Im also not
going to presume that average American guys are what you called
them, or whatever violent tendencies they may or may not have.
Many are not like that. In any case, that is not my business.
I'm not debating which type of foreign chick is better - that's
an individual choice. I'll these guys decide for themselves and
stand out of their way.
Well I won't call them that despite two divorces.
If I were twice divorced from American females, I sure would
without apology or hesitation. Whether as wives or even just as
acquaintances, American females are simply low-quality humans
when compared to other foreign females - there's just no
comparison.
Agreed. Even Germans I dated played fewer head games than any US woman
I have yet dated, and I dated one US woman whom anyone would consider
very level headed and caring.
Post by ozzman
Come on, Joe Sixpack
is abundant as hell. Most guys are nice to their wives, but, you
miss
Post by avenger
the
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
point.
No, *YOU* did - THAT'S why I said the kind of guy you were
talking about above was none of my business.
Yes American women leave plenty to be desired in the temperament
department.
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Most guys prefer to wake up with the same woman they went to sleep
with.
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
Wild mood swings are hard to deal with. Most American women are
spoiled and
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
did not get as much discipline from their parents in childhood as
they
Post by avenger
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
needed or got too much. There are loads of good American women as
well. I
Post by hvatum
Post by ozzman
have seen too much to believe in blind faith in Russian women.
Of course there are many bad Russian women! But the "average" US woman
has
Post by krp
a
Post by avenger
bad attitude and thinks she's god's gift to men. She's been brainwashed
and
Post by avenger
spoiled. Even wealthy Russian women who have been pampered have a better
and
Post by avenger
more natural relationship to men. BTW, everything that exists in the US,
also exists in Russia. Child support etc. The difference is that in the
US
Post by avenger
men are persecuted with unreasonable demands for money and the
responsibility is all one sided in favour of the woman.
The average American woman is a spoiled brat full of herself, I grant
you guys that. They missed several good spankings when they were children. I
would be the first to agree that American women are a problem. The first
problem is that they HATE being women! To the American woman that means
being inferior or some twisted mental image of being inferior in their
minds. Therefore they are in a constant state of WAR with men. Marriage is
just hand to hand combat to too many American women. SO to American women
they rarely ENJOY marriage. They also feel that it is OUR DUTY to entertain
them and do their bidding and to be interesting. When our middle starts
filling in they want a "STUD" which is why more women today are engaging in
adultery than men. They seem to forget that their tits now sag to their
kneecaps and their beautiful ass had a blowout.
At that point it's all over for them anyway and only losers will have
anything to do with them.


Most of the men I know were
Post by krp
not out shopping for a replacement. Sure some good a little "strange stuff"
but unlike women, men typically don't get attached to the one night stands.
Oh the Russian courts also have very little to no regard to issues like
visitation and move-aways. Men just don't get custody in Russia, and if you
make babies with a Russian woman and she goes back to mother Russia, kiss
EVER seeing your kids again if she doesn't want you to! You think OUR courts
are bad?
The US is one of the worst. Men don't want custody in Russia.
krp
2004-07-04 01:10:31 UTC
Permalink
I am NOT saying that ALL Russian women are this way, just that your
wild
eyed and naive assumption that it is all sugar and honey is not the real
world. And many men have found these women running back to Mother
Russia
with kids. GOOD LUCK in trying to get anything from a Russian court!
And I
do mean ANYTHING!
While Pangborn entertains us with everyday sloppy moderate
generalizing, Could you post the page number from that .pdf link (which
he deleted), that had the divorce rate(s) on foreign marriages?
It's a 1996 report Turin....... This is 2004.....................
krp
2004-07-05 00:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by krp
I am NOT saying that ALL Russian women are this way, just that
your wild
Post by krp
Post by krp
eyed and naive assumption that it is all sugar and honey is not the
real
Post by krp
Post by krp
world. And many men have found these women running back to Mother
Russia
Post by krp
Post by krp
with kids. GOOD LUCK in trying to get anything from a Russian court!
And I
Post by krp
Post by krp
do mean ANYTHING!
While Pangborn entertains us with everyday sloppy moderate
generalizing, Could you post the page number from that .pdf link
(which
Post by krp
he deleted), that had the divorce rate(s) on foreign marriages?
It's a 1996 report Turin....... This is 2004.....................
That was an invalid objection when you brought it up, and it's still
invalid. Besides, I wasn't asking you.

Turin you never fail to amaze me at the level of your ignorance and
stupidity. Off the charts really. The government stopped taking that kind of
statistic in around 1997. So you deal with what was available PRIOR to 1996
when there were ver FEW Russian/American marriages. It would not be for
several years that the agencies and Internet marriage agencies would be
created. The FACT is el stupido, that there weren't many marriages and thos
ethta were tended to be those based on romance as opposed to other motives.
They were in point of FACT, typically long standing relationships created by
years of contact in business relationships or social ones. TODAY'S
American/Russian marriages are done at warp speed, often in a few months if
not days. The poin is VERY valid. And I can send you the entire PDF Turin
and it does NOT quite support the poster's idyllic views even then.
Turin
2004-07-05 11:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by krp
Post by krp
I am NOT saying that ALL Russian women are this way, just that
your wild
Post by krp
Post by krp
eyed and naive assumption that it is all sugar and honey is not the
real
Post by krp
Post by krp
world. And many men have found these women running back to Mother
Russia
Post by krp
Post by krp
with kids. GOOD LUCK in trying to get anything from a Russian court!
And I
Post by krp
Post by krp
do mean ANYTHING!
While Pangborn entertains us with everyday sloppy moderate
generalizing, Could you post the page number from that .pdf link
(which
Post by krp
he deleted), that had the divorce rate(s) on foreign marriages?
It's a 1996 report Turin....... This is 2004.....................
That was an invalid objection when you brought it up, and it's still
invalid. Besides, I wasn't asking you.
Turin you never fail to amaze me at the level of your ignorance and
stupidity. Off the charts really. The government stopped taking that kind of
statistic in around 1997. So you deal with what was available PRIOR to 1996
when there were ver FEW Russian/American marriages. It would not be for
several years that the agencies and Internet marriage agencies would be
created. The FACT is el stupido, that there weren't many marriages and thos
ethta were tended to be those based on romance as opposed to other motives.
They were in point of FACT, typically long standing relationships created by
years of contact in business relationships or social ones. TODAY'S
American/Russian marriages are done at warp speed, often in a few months if
not days. The poin is VERY valid. And I can send you the entire PDF Turin
and it does NOT quite support the poster's idyllic views even then.
Pangbrain, you can drop the used-car bullshit with me, because I ain't
- and never have been - impressed by your idiotic, overdone "Joe
Sixpack" image. Alright? If you have one overriding fault in your
ability to debate, then it's the fact that you constantly talk in
soundbites and marketed phrases which attempt to wham the listener
around with words, but which ultimately fall back on attempting to
command his or her respect for what they say about what you stand for
...which is nothing more than a laugh, from where I'm sitting.


Like I said, I wasn't talking to you - because you wouldn't know. As
usual, you're stacking your extremely limited anecdotal experience
against the original poster's, which read to me like it had much more
basis - and homework done - for it than your own (always exaggerated)
claims.

At any rate, he had first hand experience IN RUSSIA, while you don't.
Only, possibly, a very filtered experience of whatever few men had
mistakenly called you up as victims of Russian gold-diggers, but which
you of course had to promote, as a blurb.

As far as the date of the report goes, I was asking about it in order
to verify what your opponent had claimed, in itself, about it. If you
had more of a brain, then you would have said nothing, realizing that
it might hurt his case, anyway. As it was, though, you hadn't
bothered to check it beyond looking at the date, and are now agreeing
with me, while taking the credit for what I spotted, like the
suburbanized cracker that you really are.


The fact is, I don't see why you're even making an argument about
this, beyond your constant need to fake an alpha male personality. If
he says that he is currently witnessing all of this in Russia, then
why would you presume to contradict him at all based on your state
side view of things, unless you're going to claim that he's not really
in Russia? The study was tangential.

Probably all that it is, is the fact that we're talking about
Russians, and it's the old cold war mentality: Mindlessly bashing the
culture of a supposed enemy - like a jingo - as part of your Joe
Sixpack image ...Pangborn, for once in your dumb fucking life, just
shut up, sit back, and listen and learn from your betters. Your
generation was nothing more than a bunch of liars in it's prime, and
you garbage scows still haven't become more moral with the passing of
time.



- - -

This has been another word of wisdom, with...

Turin

I have such sites to show you...
------------------------
http://members.fortunecity.com/turinturambar/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Men_First/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Men_Politics/
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/socmen2
------------------------

"He who changeth, altereth, misconstrueth, argueth with, deleteth, or
maketh a lie about these words or causeth them to not be known shall
burn in hell forever and ever...."

-----
KRP
2004-07-05 12:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
Post by krp
While Pangborn entertains us with everyday sloppy moderate
generalizing, Could you post the page number from that .pdf link
(which
Post by krp
he deleted), that had the divorce rate(s) on foreign marriages?
It's a 1996 report Turin....... This is
2004.....................
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
That was an invalid objection when you brought it up, and it's still
invalid. Besides, I wasn't asking you.
Turin you never fail to amaze me at the level of your ignorance and
stupidity. Off the charts really. The government stopped taking that kind of
statistic in around 1997. So you deal with what was available PRIOR to 1996
when there were ver FEW Russian/American marriages. It would not be for
several years that the agencies and Internet marriage agencies would be
created. The FACT is el stupido, that there weren't many marriages and thos
ethta were tended to be those based on romance as opposed to other motives.
They were in point of FACT, typically long standing relationships created by
years of contact in business relationships or social ones. TODAY'S
American/Russian marriages are done at warp speed, often in a few months if
not days. The poin is VERY valid. And I can send you the entire PDF Turin
and it does NOT quite support the poster's idyllic views even then.
Pangbrain, you can drop the used-car bullshit with me, because I ain't
- and never have been - impressed by your idiotic, overdone "Joe
Sixpack" image. Alright? If you have one overriding fault in your
ability to debate, then it's the fact that you constantly talk in
soundbites and marketed phrases which attempt to wham the listener
around with words, but which ultimately fall back on attempting to
command his or her respect for what they say about what you stand for
...which is nothing more than a laugh, from where I'm sitting.
Turin you are and always have been a debate bully, you resort to threats
and diversions. Stick with the subject.
Post by Turin
Like I said, I wasn't talking to you - because you wouldn't know. As
usual, you're stacking your extremely limited anecdotal experience
against the original poster's, which read to me like it had much more
basis - and homework done - for it than your own (always exaggerated)
claims.
Of course Turin, because I have always regarded you as nothing more than
a very angy, heavy metal acid head punk. So that there is no warm blood
between us is no shock. But I dare say that in my work, I deal with many
more people than he does who have seen the problems in foreign marriages.
You always try to take my points to the extreme. I did say that not all
marriages to Russian women are bad, that the picture of them being so ideal
is a fantasy. There are a great many bad ones. However, this has nothing to
do with the FACT that the data he cited is woefully out of date and of, at
best, dubious relation to the situation today.
Post by Turin
At any rate, he had first hand experience IN RUSSIA, while you don't.
Only, possibly, a very filtered experience of whatever few men had
mistakenly called you up as victims of Russian gold-diggers, but which
you of course had to promote, as a blurb.
How do you KNOW that asswipe? In the period that I was single following
my divorce I did look into relationships with Russian women. Many of them
are drop dead gorgeous. I just went into it with eyes open because I have
seen so many cases that showed the problems with the deal. So whiole I have
known Russian women, some very nice, I know the cultural problems and I know
the upside. Your problem is blind hatred of American women Turin. But in
your case I think the women in your life just may have been fully justified
in hating you and making you miserable. I have promoted NOTHING here Turin.
I have not even said what I do for a living. Intelligent folks can draw
their own conclusions.
Post by Turin
As far as the date of the report goes, I was asking about it in order
to verify what your opponent had claimed, in itself, about it. If you
had more of a brain, then you would have said nothing, realizing that
it might hurt his case, anyway. As it was, though, you hadn't
bothered to check it beyond looking at the date, and are now agreeing
with me, while taking the credit for what I spotted, like the
suburbanized cracker that you really are.
What he claimed was absolutely ACCURATE for the period in which it was
done. The report is dated from 1996, but the sata covers a 10 year period
ending in 1995. If YOU had a brain you'd have seen I did not dispute the
report other than to point out that it was almost a decade out of date and
of dubious validity to the situation today! That being that by best guess
the number of American/Russian marriages is exponentially greater today than
it was then before organized agencies (there are now dozens) versus none
then.
Post by Turin
The fact is, I don't see why you're even making an argument about
this, beyond your constant need to fake an alpha male personality. If
he says that he is currently witnessing all of this in Russia, then
why would you presume to contradict him at all based on your state
side view of things, unless you're going to claim that he's not really
in Russia? The study was tangential.
If there is an ALPHA MALE here that'd be you Turin the silverback of the
Internet. Well at least you TRY to pretend to be our silverback, attackign
every other male who dares disagree with your woman hating agenda. I didn't
hear the guy claim to be IN Russia. I think he said he had a personal
relationship with a Russian woman and he could live there. Turin as ALWAYS
you pretend to know things you don't. Do you know if I have ever been to
Russia, perhaps walked in St. Peters square? As usual for you, you pretend
knowledge about my personal life you don'ty have. 100% of your information
about me comes from David Moore and much of that comes from Stacy Alexander.
Post by Turin
Probably all that it is, is the fact that we're talking about
Russians, and it's the old cold war mentality: Mindlessly bashing the
culture of a supposed enemy - like a jingo - as part of your Joe
Sixpack image ...Pangborn, for once in your dumb fucking life, just
shut up, sit back, and listen and learn from your betters. Your
generation was nothing more than a bunch of liars in it's prime, and
you garbage scows still haven't become more moral with the passing of
time.
Hardly Turin. The cold war has no application here except being an
invention of your twisted mind. You jumped in here to pick a fight with me
PERIOD!
You attempt to place whole ideas in my position that are simply not there.
And YOU will never be my equal much less my better! GOT THAT LOSER?
Turin
2004-07-06 00:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
Post by krp
While Pangborn entertains us with everyday sloppy moderate
generalizing, Could you post the page number from that .pdf link
(which
Post by krp
he deleted), that had the divorce rate(s) on foreign marriages?
It's a 1996 report Turin....... This is
2004.....................
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
That was an invalid objection when you brought it up, and it's still
invalid. Besides, I wasn't asking you.
Turin you never fail to amaze me at the level of your ignorance and
stupidity. Off the charts really. The government stopped taking that
kind of
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
statistic in around 1997. So you deal with what was available PRIOR to
1996
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
when there were ver FEW Russian/American marriages. It would not be for
several years that the agencies and Internet marriage agencies would be
created. The FACT is el stupido, that there weren't many marriages and
thos
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
ethta were tended to be those based on romance as opposed to other
motives.
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
They were in point of FACT, typically long standing relationships
created by
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
years of contact in business relationships or social ones. TODAY'S
American/Russian marriages are done at warp speed, often in a few months
if
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
not days. The poin is VERY valid. And I can send you the entire PDF
Turin
Post by Turin
Post by Wanderer
and it does NOT quite support the poster's idyllic views even then.
Pangbrain, you can drop the used-car bullshit with me, because I ain't
- and never have been - impressed by your idiotic, overdone "Joe
Sixpack" image. Alright? If you have one overriding fault in your
ability to debate, then it's the fact that you constantly talk in
soundbites and marketed phrases which attempt to wham the listener
around with words, but which ultimately fall back on attempting to
command his or her respect for what they say about what you stand for
...which is nothing more than a laugh, from where I'm sitting.
Turin you are and always have been a debate bully, you resort to threats
and diversions. Stick with the subject.
Sorry, old man, but the male-feminist, family-man's passive-aggressive
technique still doesn't work on me. Nor, on the countless people who
have witnessed your antics here for years, who may not understand it
for what it is.

All that this sudden whimpering of yours amounts to is that you're
intimidated by me, because you can't intimidate me. You're a
psychotic who needs to browbeat people who you think are smaller than
you. You know it. You know that I know it. You've always had this
problem. That's why you want to change the subject.
Post by krp
Post by Turin
Like I said, I wasn't talking to you - because you wouldn't know. As
usual, you're stacking your extremely limited anecdotal experience
against the original poster's, which read to me like it had much more
basis - and homework done - for it than your own (always exaggerated)
claims.
Of course Turin, because I have always regarded you as nothing more than
a very angy, heavy metal acid head punk.
No. That's just your latest easy answer. You came up with that
several months ago as a desperation tactic to counter the fact that my
grass roots work in the Men's Movement also represents the growing
backlash against the apologist phonies, like you, who have always
collaborated with the women's syndicate.

It's funny that you would have been late with that one, because it's
the domesticated, suburban, middle class male weasels - whom no one
respects - who have typically resorted to the jealous pop culture
comparisons, almost as long as I remember. But, then, they were VERY
lazy, and were really just looking for a willing audience which
wouldn't snore too loudly - while being bored to sleep/death listening
to their hackneyed soap-boxing. You, on the other hand, want some
conflict ....that is, until you start getting beaten.

...Then - like them - it's all, "boo-hoo! whence cometh all this
untoward anger???"
Post by krp
So that there is no warm blood
between us is no shock.
No shit. For that to happen, Al Quaeda would have to hold you down in
front of me, with a camcorder.
Post by krp
But I dare say that in my work, I deal with many
more people than he does who have seen the problems in foreign marriages.
I dare say that, in your supposed work, you wouldn't see anything BUT
the problematic marriages. You missed the whole point of Wanderer's
article if you still don't get that. No surprise.
Post by krp
You always try to take my points to the extreme.
That's because you're a bourgeois idiot who likes to bait people,
using sweeping statements, just so that they will fire back at you,
with an equally polarized mindset, before you switch on them to the
moderate position. I've seen your type a thousand times.
Post by krp
I did say that not all
marriages to Russian women are bad, that the picture of them being so ideal
is a fantasy. There are a great many bad ones. However, this has nothing to
do with the FACT that the data he cited is woefully out of date and of, at
best, dubious relation to the situation today.
Well, I say that some data is better than no data - which is what
you're citing: whether to be your usual piss & vinegar self, or to
jingoistically condemn an old socialistic culture (even though you're
a closet socialist, who all but admits it).

Using WHAT data did you say that Russian divorces were now so high?
I'll agree with you, if you've got something valid, but the "Ken
Pangborn says so" argument isn't worth fertilizer enough to make a
Timothy McVeigh explosive device.
Post by krp
Post by Turin
At any rate, he had first hand experience IN RUSSIA, while you don't.
Only, possibly, a very filtered experience of whatever few men had
mistakenly called you up as victims of Russian gold-diggers, but which
you of course had to promote, as a blurb.
How do you KNOW that asswipe? In the period that I was single following
my divorce I did look into relationships with Russian women. Many of them
are drop dead gorgeous.
So, you investigated Russian women to the same extent that Wanderer
did, Did you? Funny you didn't bring this up.
Post by krp
I just went into it with eyes open because I have
seen so many cases that showed the problems with the deal.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
Post by krp
So whiole I have
known Russian women, some very nice, I know the cultural problems and I know
the upside.
Yeah? And when? When you were single, and on the prowl, breaking all
those Russian hearts....? Is this data any more recent than hvatum's?
Post by krp
Your problem is blind hatred of American women Turin. But in
your case I think the women in your life just may have been fully justified
in hating you and making you miserable.
Yeah... yeah. Isn't that ALWAYS the conclusion of the ex
male-feminist & liberals .....*yawn*

Your problem, Pangborn, is that you're an old male feminist who just
doesn't get it: An old male feminist trying to run the same old lines
and epithets at every Men's advocate that is being born, almost every
day.

Just like in the old days, when you self-effacing nice guys joined
women's groups because you were shitty specimens of virility - but
tried to con everyone into thinking it was because you really believed
women were short-changed.

You were dedicated one-ups-men back then, and you're the same today.


All that you've renounced about any of this is the socialism part of
it, in order to blend in with the new corporate political fads. Your
only aim is - still - to try to capture the female interest, and you
do that by competing against the rest of us, using niceness. It's
still only about the female with you opportunistic cowards. You're
products of rejection.

Still, single-mindedly looking for the best angle that will let you
turn the next man's strength against him, and your weakness into an
advantage over that, so that you can catch him from a blind side and
claim the female. You have no blind side of your own to look out for
because you're willing to eat female shit.

Still, hostile to Men's groups and causes, and still trying to fool
the rest of us with these shitty, no-agenda, reactionary, non-partisan
substitutes - where women get the benefit of double standards, and a
free ride at our expense, no matter what. Men who protest it all,
and who want to get active for their own interests, are just treated
as misogynists - like we should give a shit - rather than as a
political party which refuses to accept disposable second class
citizenship.

You're a coward and a weakling, Pangborn. Other men's oppression is
your best opportunity ...in more ways than one.
Post by krp
I have promoted NOTHING here Turin.
I have not even said what I do for a living. Intelligent folks can draw
their own conclusions.
Yeah. They can draw them, later on, when you start advertising Ken
Pangborn divorce services - after reading what you planted into their
minds, earlier, about your phony vast experience. Right? Right.

And, if they're really intelligent, they can ask you why you don't
pursue a course of CHANGING the system, instead of just keeping the
lawyers in business. You aren't going to fool them much longer with
that line about offering them a cheaper alternative. You have an
ideological bias.
Post by krp
Post by Turin
As far as the date of the report goes, I was asking about it in order
to verify what your opponent had claimed, in itself, about it. If you
had more of a brain, then you would have said nothing, realizing that
it might hurt his case, anyway. As it was, though, you hadn't
bothered to check it beyond looking at the date, and are now agreeing
with me, while taking the credit for what I spotted, like the
suburbanized cracker that you really are.
What he claimed was absolutely ACCURATE for the period in which it was
done. The report is dated from 1996, but the sata covers a 10 year period
ending in 1995. If YOU had a brain you'd have seen I did not dispute the
report other than to point out that it was almost a decade out of date and
of dubious validity to the situation today! That being that by best guess
the number of American/Russian marriages is exponentially greater today than
it was then before organized agencies (there are now dozens) versus none
then.
Then, give us some hard data on the divorce rate with Russian women,
that you claimed ...or hold your peace.
Post by krp
Post by Turin
this, beyond your constant need to fake an alpha male personality. If
he says that he is currently witnessing all of this in Russia, then
why would you presume to contradict him at all based on your state
side view of things, unless you're going to claim that he's not really
in Russia? The study was tangential.
If there is an ALPHA MALE here that'd be you Turin the silverback of the
Internet. Well at least you TRY to pretend to be our silverback, attackign
every other male who dares disagree with your woman hating agenda.
I just love the way this guy can admit in some posts that American
women are deeply fixed man-haters, and yet in others one hold
"woman-hating" in an American man's face as a sin (because when it
comes to MEN fighting back, he's too damn "good" for it). If that
doesn't say it all about what's wrong with the U.S. attitude toward
it's men, then I don't know what does. I'm not exactly cringing in
shame about this.


Anyway, I want to make a point about something that he just brought
up. In these forums, you get two general kinds of men's advocates
who, basically, endorse doing nothing:

First, you get the all-forgiving, male-feminist compromisers, who
would rather castrate themselves, and eat their own balls, for a
female audience, than to be seen endorsing one single negative
sentiment about sticking it back to women.

Then, you get the hilarious sexist/patriarchal non-compromising
would-be's who sweep aside every serious recommendation for getting
men back onto their own feet in their lives, and out of a defensive
posture. Their pretense is that they aren't gonna surrender AT ALL.
These boys are going to take it ALL back, and reestablish tradition.
All at once. They're gonna do it, too. You just watch. You can
nevertheless spot crucial capitulations within their ideas about
"tradition", but whenever that happens then - hey! - just up the
volume again!

The first group is protecting women's gains - to hell with men's
"whining". The second group isn't being serious - but want you to
believe that they are, for various reasons.


Now, IMO, these two types are both basically cowards who are
programmed mainly by fear of females, and fear of life.

After all, it's hard not to be. America hasn't been the land of the
free for generations now. It's been the Land of the Industrialist,
and of the Land of the Corporate Capitalist. The rest of the people
are just the serfs that make up its disingenuous feudal system. Dead,
is the American dream of the everyday guy: that he can invent or do
something that will make him rich, or self-sufficient. Everything is
just too fixed. He knows that his country has been hijacked, and that
all he can do to survive in it is to prostitute everything that he is
to one of the plutocrats who control the empire - who will never stop
seeking new ways to subordinate his entire psychology in order to make
certain that he never breaks his chains - economically, or otherwise.

So, the way that they've been taught to respond to the question of
issues is to surrender their role in them, and the justifying
philosophy for this is that of "mainstream" versus "extremists".
Those are the terms that moderates use for themselves and us. The non
politicized terms would actually be "moderates" versus "ideologues",
respectively.

Everyone who steps up for their own interests is "extremist".
Everyone who sits and becomes a spectator, who lets others make his
decisions for him, is "mainstream". The compromisers and the sexists
both subscribe to the do-nothing ideology of moderates and they both
disparage the ideologues who want to draw a realist line somewhere,
and put themselves back in charge of their own lives.

Now, the point is this: A compromiser, like Pigbarn, will clutch his
heart in mock alarm and call an ideologue an extremist for saying
something, like: "Women who break the law, should be prosecuted and
put in jail for it, to give men justice, and to set an example to keep
it from happening repeatedly. Men should prosecute"

That's a perfectly reasonable thing to want. It's a lot less
revolutionary than anything about establishing a new patriarchal order
- however tongue-in-cheek - but that's not a good enough concession
for his ilk. He, and they, still work to curry favor with the women's
movement by affording it whatever special status they can. All
criticism and ill-will of women who lie, cheat, steal, hurt, and kill
men must be resolved through forgiveness, but still bringing down the
penalty of law upon men who do these things to women.

When it comes to infringing upon female-privilege, these
counter-insurgents become instant idealists ...meanwhile, always
throwing Men the shit-droppings of "reality", with lots of shame to go
with it and to cement it into their minds.
Post by krp
I didn't
hear the guy claim to be IN Russia.
You might want to try reading every now and then. It helps. The guy
said he had been living in Russia for something like six months.
Post by krp
I think he said he had a personal
relationship with a Russian woman and he could live there. Turin as ALWAYS
you pretend to know things you don't.
Why would ANYONE have to do something like that, when arguing with
you...?
Post by krp
Do you know if I have ever been to
Russia, perhaps walked in St. Peters square?
That's irrelevant. You already took your stance on this.
Post by krp
As usual for you, you pretend
knowledge about my personal life you don'ty have.
As usual, you're fouling to get out of a corner that you've backed
yourself into.
Post by krp
100% of your information
about me comes from David Moore and much of that comes from Stacy Alexander.
So, if I want to know about you, then I go to Stacy Alexander, instead
of David Moore? Is that what you're saying...?
Post by krp
Post by Turin
Probably all that it is, is the fact that we're talking about
Russians, and it's the old cold war mentality: Mindlessly bashing the
culture of a supposed enemy - like a jingo - as part of your Joe
Sixpack image ...Pangborn, for once in your dumb fucking life, just
shut up, sit back, and listen and learn from your betters. Your
generation was nothing more than a bunch of liars in it's prime, and
you garbage scows still haven't become more moral with the passing of
time.
Hardly Turin. The cold war has no application here except being an
invention of your twisted mind.
It's just a working theory, Conservative Bunghole. It's been known to
be true before.
Post by krp
You jumped in here to pick a fight with me
PERIOD!
Aww.... now, challenging the stupidity of someone - who always has the
inside story on everything - is "picking a fight" with him. ...When
do I begin my penance...?
Post by krp
You attempt to place whole ideas in my position that are simply not there.
If so, then that's only because no whole idea is there in the position
of a moderate - let alone inside of his head.
Post by krp
And YOU will never be my equal much less my better! GOT THAT LOSER?
...You're welcome.



- - -

The face of an angel, the charm of the devil:

Turin

I have such sites to show you...
------------------------
http://members.fortunecity.com/turinturambar/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Men_First/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Men_Politics/
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/socmen2
------------------------

"He who changeth, altereth, misconstrueth, argueth with, deleteth, or
maketh a lie about these words or causeth them to not be known shall
burn in hell forever and ever...."

-----
krp
2004-07-06 13:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turin
Post by KRP
Post by Turin
Pangbrain, you can drop the used-car bullshit with me, because I ain't
- and never have been - impressed by your idiotic, overdone "Joe
Sixpack" image. Alright? If you have one overriding fault in your
ability to debate, then it's the fact that you constantly talk in
soundbites and marketed phrases which attempt to wham the listener
around with words, but which ultimately fall back on attempting to
command his or her respect for what they say about what you stand for
...which is nothing more than a laugh, from where I'm sitting.
Turin you are and always have been a debate bully, you resort to threats
and diversions. Stick with the subject.
Sorry, old man, but the male-feminist, family-man's passive-aggressive
technique still doesn't work on me. Nor, on the countless people who
have witnessed your antics here for years, who may not understand it
for what it is.
What you claim it is that is. And Turin note that few people buy your
crap.
Post by Turin
All that this sudden whimpering of yours amounts to is that you're
intimidated by me, because you can't intimidate me. You're a
psychotic who needs to browbeat people who you think are smaller than
you. You know it. You know that I know it. You've always had this
problem. That's why you want to change the subject.
Little boy the DAY you can intimidate ME wil be the day the Earth stops
rotating on its axis. Who is calling WHO names here? Who is the punk trying
to intimidate? Who ATTACKS every men's rights activist on the net and in the
movement? YOU! Look at what you write Turin and see who is trying to
browbeat who. You just can't handle those who stand up to you like any
playground bully.
Post by Turin
Post by KRP
Post by Turin
Like I said, I wasn't talking to you - because you wouldn't know. As
usual, you're stacking your extremely limited anecdotal experience
against the original poster's, which read to me like it had much more
basis - and homework done - for it than your own (always exaggerated)
claims.
Of course Turin, because I have always regarded you as nothing more than
a very angy, heavy metal acid head punk.
No. That's just your latest easy answer. You came up with that
several months ago as a desperation tactic to counter the fact that my
grass roots work in the Men's Movement also represents the growing
backlash against the apologist phonies, like you, who have always
collaborated with the women's syndicate.
What "grass roots work in the Men's Movement" Turin? Your endless
bitching on Usenet and attacking EVERYONE else who is REALLY in the
movement?
Turin you are merely a hate merchant. You hate women. You have men's
activists who have labored in the fields for decades. Where IS your
contribution of than in your venom? What ORGANIZATION do you have? NONE!
Followers? NONE! Grass roots? All you do is bullshit on Usenet and attack,
and your brand of bullshit isn't even good fertilizer. Nothing GROWS behind
you. Everything dies!

Turin you are JUST LIKE the radical feminists. Your agenda is
HATE........... You never BUILD UP you only TEAR DOWN..... So far I have yet
to see ONE constructive thing from you! Nothing to lift men or fathers
up.You even put down the Fathers 4 justice in the UK, yet THEY are moving
forward. Name ONE positive accomplishment you can claim? Turin we've been
here before, you're right. In the months I have challenegd you to name ONE
positive accomplishment that YOU as our resident loudmouth has EVER
accomplished to advance men's or fathers rights, YOU HAVE NOT AND CAN NOT!

ALl you are Turin is a VERY ANGRY noise maker on Usenet! A man of ZERO
capital! No substance at all. Just ANGER!
Post by Turin
It's funny that you would have been late with that one, because it's
the domesticated, suburban, middle class male weasels - whom no one
respects - who have typically resorted to the jealous pop culture
comparisons, almost as long as I remember. But, then, they were VERY
lazy, and were really just looking for a willing audience which
wouldn't snore too loudly - while being bored to sleep/death listening
to their hackneyed soap-boxing. You, on the other hand, want some
conflict ....that is, until you start getting beaten.
...Then - like them - it's all, "boo-hoo! whence cometh all this
untoward anger???"
Post by KRP
So that there is no warm blood
between us is no shock.
No shit. For that to happen, Al Quaeda would have to hold you down in
front of me, with a camcorder.
Post by KRP
But I dare say that in my work, I deal with many
more people than he does who have seen the problems in foreign marriages.
I dare say that, in your supposed work, you wouldn't see anything BUT
the problematic marriages. You missed the whole point of Wanderer's
article if you still don't get that. No surprise.
Post by KRP
You always try to take my points to the extreme.
That's because you're a bourgeois idiot who likes to bait people,
using sweeping statements, just so that they will fire back at you,
with an equally polarized mindset, before you switch on them to the
moderate position. I've seen your type a thousand times.
Post by KRP
I did say that not all
marriages to Russian women are bad, that the picture of them being so ideal
is a fantasy. There are a great many bad ones. However, this has nothing to
do with the FACT that the data he cited is woefully out of date and of, at
best, dubious relation to the situation today.
Well, I say that some data is better than no data - which is what
you're citing: whether to be your usual piss & vinegar self, or to
jingoistically condemn an old socialistic culture (even though you're
a closet socialist, who all but admits it).
Using WHAT data did you say that Russian divorces were now so high?
I'll agree with you, if you've got something valid, but the "Ken
Pangborn says so" argument isn't worth fertilizer enough to make a
Timothy McVeigh explosive device.
Post by KRP
Post by Turin
At any rate, he had first hand experience IN RUSSIA, while you don't.
Only, possibly, a very filtered experience of whatever few men had
mistakenly called you up as victims of Russian gold-diggers, but which
you of course had to promote, as a blurb.
How do you KNOW that asswipe? In the period that I was single following
my divorce I did look into relationships with Russian women. Many of them
are drop dead gorgeous.
So, you investigated Russian women to the same extent that Wanderer
did, Did you? Funny you didn't bring this up.
Post by KRP
I just went into it with eyes open because I have
seen so many cases that showed the problems with the deal.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
Post by KRP
So whiole I have
known Russian women, some very nice, I know the cultural problems and I know
the upside.
Yeah? And when? When you were single, and on the prowl, breaking all
those Russian hearts....? Is this data any more recent than hvatum's?
Post by KRP
Your problem is blind hatred of American women Turin. But in
your case I think the women in your life just may have been fully justified
in hating you and making you miserable.
Yeah... yeah. Isn't that ALWAYS the conclusion of the ex
male-feminist & liberals .....*yawn*
Your problem, Pangborn, is that you're an old male feminist who just
doesn't get it: An old male feminist trying to run the same old lines
and epithets at every Men's advocate that is being born, almost every
day.
Just like in the old days, when you self-effacing nice guys joined
women's groups because you were shitty specimens of virility - but
tried to con everyone into thinking it was because you really believed
women were short-changed.
You were dedicated one-ups-men back then, and you're the same today.
All that you've renounced about any of this is the socialism part of
it, in order to blend in with the new corporate political fads. Your
only aim is - still - to try to capture the female interest, and you
do that by competing against the rest of us, using niceness. It's
still only about the female with you opportunistic cowards. You're
products of rejection.
Still, single-mindedly looking for the best angle that will let you
turn the next man's strength against him, and your weakness into an
advantage over that, so that you can catch him from a blind side and
claim the female. You have no blind side of your own to look out for
because you're willing to eat female shit.
Still, hostile to Men's groups and causes, and still trying to fool
the rest of us with these shitty, no-agenda, reactionary, non-partisan
substitutes - where women get the benefit of double standards, and a
free ride at our expense, no matter what. Men who protest it all,
and who want to get active for their own interests, are just treated
as misogynists - like we should give a shit - rather than as a
political party which refuses to accept disposable second class
citizenship.
You're a coward and a weakling, Pangborn. Other men's oppression is
your best opportunity ...in more ways than one.
Post by KRP
I have promoted NOTHING here Turin.
I have not even said what I do for a living. Intelligent folks can draw
their own conclusions.
Yeah. They can draw them, later on, when you start advertising Ken
Pangborn divorce services - after reading what you planted into their
minds, earlier, about your phony vast experience. Right? Right.
And, if they're really intelligent, they can ask you why you don't
pursue a course of CHANGING the system, instead of just keeping the
lawyers in business. You aren't going to fool them much longer with
that line about offering them a cheaper alternative. You have an
ideological bias.
Post by KRP
Post by Turin
As far as the date of the report goes, I was asking about it in order
to verify what your opponent had claimed, in itself, about it. If you
had more of a brain, then you would have said nothing, realizing that
it might hurt his case, anyway. As it was, though, you hadn't
bothered to check it beyond looking at the date, and are now agreeing
with me, while taking the credit for what I spotted, like the
suburbanized cracker that you really are.
What he claimed was absolutely ACCURATE for the period in which it was
done. The report is dated from 1996, but the sata covers a 10 year period
ending in 1995. If YOU had a brain you'd have seen I did not dispute the
report other than to point out that it was almost a decade out of date and
of dubious validity to the situation today! That being that by best guess
the number of American/Russian marriages is exponentially greater today than
it was then before organized agencies (there are now dozens) versus none
then.
Then, give us some hard data on the divorce rate with Russian women,
that you claimed ...or hold your peace.
Post by KRP
Post by Turin
this, beyond your constant need to fake an alpha male personality. If
he says that he is currently witnessing all of this in Russia, then
why would you presume to contradict him at all based on your state
side view of things, unless you're going to claim that he's not really
in Russia? The study was tangential.
If there is an ALPHA MALE here that'd be you Turin the silverback of the
Internet. Well at least you TRY to pretend to be our silverback, attackign
every other male who dares disagree with your woman hating agenda.
I just love the way this guy can admit in some posts that American
women are deeply fixed man-haters, and yet in others one hold
"woman-hating" in an American man's face as a sin (because when it
comes to MEN fighting back, he's too damn "good" for it). If that
doesn't say it all about what's wrong with the U.S. attitude toward
it's men, then I don't know what does. I'm not exactly cringing in
shame about this.
Anyway, I want to make a point about something that he just brought
up. In these forums, you get two general kinds of men's advocates
First, you get the all-forgiving, male-feminist compromisers, who
would rather castrate themselves, and eat their own balls, for a
female audience, than to be seen endorsing one single negative
sentiment about sticking it back to women.
Then, you get the hilarious sexist/patriarchal non-compromising
would-be's who sweep aside every serious recommendation for getting
men back onto their own feet in their lives, and out of a defensive
posture. Their pretense is that they aren't gonna surrender AT ALL.
These boys are going to take it ALL back, and reestablish tradition.
All at once. They're gonna do it, too. You just watch. You can
nevertheless spot crucial capitulations within their ideas about
"tradition", but whenever that happens then - hey! - just up the
volume again!
The first group is protecting women's gains - to hell with men's
"whining". The second group isn't being serious - but want you to
believe that they are, for various reasons.
Now, IMO, these two types are both basically cowards who are
programmed mainly by fear of females, and fear of life.
After all, it's hard not to be. America hasn't been the land of the
free for generations now. It's been the Land of the Industrialist,
and of the Land of the Corporate Capitalist. The rest of the people
are just the serfs that make up its disingenuous feudal system. Dead,
is the American dream of the everyday guy: that he can invent or do
something that will make him rich, or self-sufficient. Everything is
just too fixed. He knows that his country has been hijacked, and that
all he can do to survive in it is to prostitute everything that he is
to one of the plutocrats who control the empire - who will never stop
seeking new ways to subordinate his entire psychology in order to make
certain that he never breaks his chains - economically, or otherwise.
So, the way that they've been taught to respond to the question of
issues is to surrender their role in them, and the justifying
philosophy for this is that of "mainstream" versus "extremists".
Those are the terms that moderates use for themselves and us. The non
politicized terms would actually be "moderates" versus "ideologues",
respectively.
Everyone who steps up for their own interests is "extremist".
Everyone who sits and becomes a spectator, who lets others make his
decisions for him, is "mainstream". The compromisers and the sexists
both subscribe to the do-nothing ideology of moderates and they both
disparage the ideologues who want to draw a realist line somewhere,
and put themselves back in charge of their own lives.
Now, the point is this: A compromiser, like Pigbarn, will clutch his
heart in mock alarm and call an ideologue an extremist for saying
something, like: "Women who break the law, should be prosecuted and
put in jail for it, to give men justice, and to set an example to keep
it from happening repeatedly. Men should prosecute"
That's a perfectly reasonable thing to want. It's a lot less
revolutionary than anything about establishing a new patriarchal order
- however tongue-in-cheek - but that's not a good enough concession
for his ilk. He, and they, still work to curry favor with the women's
movement by affording it whatever special status they can. All
criticism and ill-will of women who lie, cheat, steal, hurt, and kill
men must be resolved through forgiveness, but still bringing down the
penalty of law upon men who do these things to women.
When it comes to infringing upon female-privilege, these
counter-insurgents become instant idealists ...meanwhile, always
throwing Men the shit-droppings of "reality", with lots of shame to go
with it and to cement it into their minds.
Post by KRP
I didn't
hear the guy claim to be IN Russia.
You might want to try reading every now and then. It helps. The guy
said he had been living in Russia for something like six months.
Post by KRP
I think he said he had a personal
relationship with a Russian woman and he could live there. Turin as ALWAYS
you pretend to know things you don't.
Why would ANYONE have to do something like that, when arguing with
you...?
Post by KRP
Do you know if I have ever been to
Russia, perhaps walked in St. Peters square?
That's irrelevant. You already took your stance on this.
Post by KRP
As usual for you, you pretend
knowledge about my personal life you don'ty have.
As usual, you're fouling to get out of a corner that you've backed
yourself into.
Post by KRP
100% of your information
about me comes from David Moore and much of that comes from Stacy Alexander.
So, if I want to know about you, then I go to Stacy Alexander, instead
of David Moore? Is that what you're saying...?
Post by KRP
Post by Turin
Probably all that it is, is the fact that we're talking about
Russians, and it's the old cold war mentality: Mindlessly bashing the
culture of a supposed enemy - like a jingo - as part of your Joe
Sixpack image ...Pangborn, for once in your dumb fucking life, just
shut up, sit back, and listen and learn from your betters. Your
generation was nothing more than a bunch of liars in it's prime, and
you garbage scows still haven't become more moral with the passing of
time.
Hardly Turin. The cold war has no application here except being an
invention of your twisted mind.
It's just a working theory, Conservative Bunghole. It's been known to
be true before.
Post by KRP
You jumped in here to pick a fight with me
PERIOD!
Aww.... now, challenging the stupidity of someone - who always has the
inside story on everything - is "picking a fight" with him. ...When
do I begin my penance...?
Post by KRP
You attempt to place whole ideas in my position that are simply not there.
If so, then that's only because no whole idea is there in the position
of a moderate - let alone inside of his head.
Post by KRP
And YOU will never be my equal much less my better! GOT THAT LOSER?
...You're welcome.
- - -
Turin
I have such sites to show you...
------------------------
http://members.fortunecity.com/turinturambar/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Men_First/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Men_Politics/
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/socmen2
------------------------
"He who changeth, altereth, misconstrueth, argueth with, deleteth, or
maketh a lie about these words or causeth them to not be known shall
burn in hell forever and ever...."
-----
Turin
2004-07-05 11:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Your generation was
nothing more than a bunch of liars in it's prime, and you garbage scows
still haven't become more moral with the passing of time.
I meant to say "the conservatives of your generation" ...not that
Painbrain would've even noticed on his own.
KRP
2004-07-05 12:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turin
Your generation was
nothing more than a bunch of liars in it's prime, and you garbage scows
still haven't become more moral with the passing of time.
I meant to say "the conservatives of your generation" ...not that
Painbrain would've even noticed on his own.
Why should I give a crap either way? You delude yourself Turin, that every
word you emit is golden........ You attack EVERY men's rights activist on
and off the net EVERYWHERE in the world. According to YOU, you are the
GREATEST spokesman for the male gender. In truth you do our gender more harm
than good.

Turin the vast majority of American men do NOT hate women as you do!
KRP
2004-07-05 12:51:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
While Pangborn entertains us with everyday sloppy moderate
generalizing, Could you post the page number from that .pdf link
(which
Post by krp
he deleted), that had the divorce rate(s) on foreign marriages?
It's a 1996 report Turin....... This is 2004.....................
That was an invalid objection when you brought it up, and it's still
invalid. Besides, I wasn't asking you.
No Turin it is absolutely valid for the reasons I have now stated
several times.

1. There were FEW cases of American men marrying Russian women in the time
the data was collected compared to today.

2. There were not the huge numbers of "marriage bureaus" in that period
(immediately following the collapse of the Soviet Union) there are today.

3. At the time the data as collected for that OUT OF DATE report, ther was
almost NO Internet infrastructure in Russia.

There are MANY reasons why that OLD report has little to no value today.
Those are merel;y a few of them. Beside, it was never MY position that they
all are bad. Just not the IDEAL being sold here. He is a man selling
something. My position was to merely through some light on the subject for
discussion. YOURS is to TRY to pretend to be the SIlverback of Usenet, and
Turin you are merely a heavy metal acid freak punk!
KRP
2004-07-05 12:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by hvatum
http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p70-80.pdf
I had already downloaded it. I need the page number.
I was only pointing out the fact that krp had deleted the link in his
reply as part of his typical dishonesty. You understand.
Why should I have included it? He had posted it. The ONLY point I make is
that it was of date collected PRIOR to 1996 which it openly says on the
FIRST PAGE in 50 point type!! Only an ASS like you burdens people with 100%
of the text as opposed to limiting quoting ONLY to what you are directly
responding to. HE knew what he cited. No need for including it Turin unless
you are a silverback WANNABE from Rochester New York!
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