Discussion:
Lonely Campus Voices
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Philip Lewis
2003-09-29 01:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Lonely Campus Voices
By DAVID BROOKS
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/opinion/27BROO.html?ex=1065763242&ei=1&en=fd9ecf4d9c7a68db
Published: September 27, 2003

Most good universities have at least one conservative professor
on campus. When, for example, some group at Harvard wants to hold
a panel discussion on some political matter, it can bring out the
political theorist Harvey Mansfield to hold up the rightward end.
At Princeton it's Robert George. At Yale it's Donald Kagan.
These dissenters lead interesting lives. But there's one
circumstance that causes true anguish: when a bright conservative
student comes to them and says he or she is thinking about
pursuing an academic career in the humanities or social sciences.
"This is one of the most difficult things," says Alan Kors, a
rare conservative at Penn. "One is desperate to see people of
independent mind willing to enter the academic world. On the
other hand, it is simply the case they will be entering hostile
and discriminatory territory."
"Here's what I'm thinking when an outstanding kid comes in," says
George, of Princeton. "If the kid applies to one of the top
graduate schools, he's likely to be not admitted. Say he gets
past that first screen. He's going to face pressure to conform,
or he'll be the victim of discrimination. It's a lot harder to
hide then than it was as an undergrad.
"But say he gets through. He's going to run into intense
discrimination trying to find a job. But say he lands a
tenure-track job. He'll run into even more intense discrimination
because the establishment gets more concerned the closer you get
to the golden ring. By the time you come up for tenure, you're in
your mid-30's with a spouse and a couple of kids. It's the worst
time to be uncertain about your career. Can I really take the
responsibility of advising a kid to take these kinds of risks?"
The most common advice conservative students get is to keep their
views in the closet. Will Inboden was working on a master's
degree in U.S. history at Yale when a liberal professor pulled
him aside after class and said: "You're one of the best students
I've got, and you could have an outstanding career. But I have to
caution you: hiring committees are loath to hire political
conservatives. You've got to be really quiet."
Conservative professors emphasize that most discrimination is not
conscious. A person who voted for President Bush may be viewed as
an oddity, but the main problem in finding a job is that the
sorts of subjects a conservative is likely to investigate - say,
diplomatic or military history - do not excite hiring committees.
Professors are interested in the subjects they are already
pursuing, and in a horrible job market it is easy to toss out
applications from people who are doing something different.
As a result, faculties skew overwhelmingly to the left. Students
often have no contact with adult conservatives, and many develop
cartoonish impressions of how 40 percent of the country thinks.
Hundreds of conservatives with Ph.D.'s end up working in
Republican administrations, in think tanks and at magazines,
often with some regrets. "Teaching is this really splendid thing.
It would be great to teach Plato's `Republic,' " says Gary Rosen,
a Harvard Ph.D. who works at Commentary magazine.
Despite all this, George advises his best and toughest students
to go ahead. "We need to send our best soldiers into battle, even
though we're going to lose a few," he says. "I hate to tell kids
they shouldn't take risks, they shouldn't go for their dreams."
Others say it is possible to have a satisfying career and do good
work if you learn not to fly straight into the prevailing
ideology. "Conservatives are people who teach the value of
prudence but are incapable of exercising any," says Mark Lilla, a
politically unclassifiable professor at the University of
Chicago.
And Jacob T. Levy, a libertarian also at Chicago, says some
conservatives exaggerate the level of hostility they face. Some
politicized humanities departments may be closed to them, he
concedes, but professors in other fields are open to argument.
If it were my kid, I'd say go to graduate school - read the books
you want to read. Then go to Washington, where you won't feel
embattled because you'll exchange ideas with liberals and others
in a more intellectually diverse setting. You'll probably end up
doing more good.
Last week the professors at Harvard's government department
reviewed the placement records of last year's doctoral students.
Two had not been able to find academic jobs, both of them
Mansfield's students. "Well," Mansfield quipped, "I guess they'll
have to go to Washington and run the country."
Philip Lewis
2003-09-29 08:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Lewis
Lonely Campus Voices
By DAVID BROOKS
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/opinion/27BROO.html?ex=1065763242&ei=1&en=fd9ecf4d9c7a68db
Post by Philip Lewis
Published: September 27, 2003
Most good universities have at least one conservative
professor
Post by Philip Lewis
on campus. When, for example, some group at Harvard wants to
hold
Post by Philip Lewis
a panel discussion on some political matter, it can bring out the
political theorist Harvey Mansfield to hold up the rightward
end.
Post by Philip Lewis
At Princeton it's Robert George. At Yale it's Donald Kagan.
These dissenters lead interesting lives. But there's one
circumstance that causes true anguish: when a bright
conservative
Post by Philip Lewis
student comes to them and says he or she is thinking about
pursuing an academic career in the humanities or social
sciences.
Post by Philip Lewis
"This is one of the most difficult things," says Alan Kors, a
rare conservative at Penn. "One is desperate to see people of
independent mind willing to enter the academic world. On the
other hand, it is simply the case they will be entering
hostile
Post by Philip Lewis
and discriminatory territory."
"Here's what I'm thinking when an outstanding kid comes in,"
says
Post by Philip Lewis
George, of Princeton. "If the kid applies to one of the top
graduate schools, he's likely to be not admitted. Say he gets
past that first screen. He's going to face pressure to
conform,
Post by Philip Lewis
or he'll be the victim of discrimination. It's a lot harder
to
Post by Philip Lewis
hide then than it was as an undergrad.
"But say he gets through. He's going to run into intense
discrimination trying to find a job. But say he lands a
tenure-track job. He'll run into even more intense
discrimination
Post by Philip Lewis
because the establishment gets more concerned the closer you
get
Post by Philip Lewis
to the golden ring. By the time you come up for tenure,
you're in
Post by Philip Lewis
your mid-30's with a spouse and a couple of kids. It's the
worst
Post by Philip Lewis
time to be uncertain about your career. Can I really take the
responsibility of advising a kid to take these kinds of
risks?"
Post by Philip Lewis
The most common advice conservative students get is to keep
their
Post by Philip Lewis
views in the closet. Will Inboden was working on a master's
degree in U.S. history at Yale when a liberal professor
pulled
Post by Philip Lewis
him aside after class and said: "You're one of the best
students
Post by Philip Lewis
I've got, and you could have an outstanding career. But I
have to
Post by Philip Lewis
caution you: hiring committees are loath to hire political
conservatives. You've got to be really quiet."
Conservative professors emphasize that most discrimination is not
conscious. A person who voted for President Bush may be
viewed as
Post by Philip Lewis
an oddity, but the main problem in finding a job is that the
sorts of subjects a conservative is likely to investigate -
say,
Post by Philip Lewis
diplomatic or military history - do not excite hiring
committees.
Post by Philip Lewis
Professors are interested in the subjects they are already
pursuing, and in a horrible job market it is easy to toss out
applications from people who are doing something different.
As a result, faculties skew overwhelmingly to the left.
Students
Post by Philip Lewis
often have no contact with adult conservatives, and many
develop
Post by Philip Lewis
cartoonish impressions of how 40 percent of the country
thinks.
Post by Philip Lewis
Hundreds of conservatives with Ph.D.'s end up working in
Republican administrations, in think tanks and at magazines,
often with some regrets. "Teaching is this really splendid
thing.
Post by Philip Lewis
It would be great to teach Plato's `Republic,' " says Gary
Rosen,
Post by Philip Lewis
a Harvard Ph.D. who works at Commentary magazine.
Despite all this, George advises his best and toughest
students
Post by Philip Lewis
to go ahead. "We need to send our best soldiers into battle,
even
Post by Philip Lewis
though we're going to lose a few," he says. "I hate to tell
kids
Post by Philip Lewis
they shouldn't take risks, they shouldn't go for their
dreams."
Post by Philip Lewis
Others say it is possible to have a satisfying career and do
good
Post by Philip Lewis
work if you learn not to fly straight into the prevailing
ideology. "Conservatives are people who teach the value of
prudence but are incapable of exercising any," says Mark
Lilla, a
Post by Philip Lewis
politically unclassifiable professor at the University of
Chicago.
And Jacob T. Levy, a libertarian also at Chicago, says some
conservatives exaggerate the level of hostility they face.
Some
Post by Philip Lewis
politicized humanities departments may be closed to them, he
concedes, but professors in other fields are open to
argument.
Post by Philip Lewis
If it were my kid, I'd say go to graduate school - read the
books
Post by Philip Lewis
you want to read. Then go to Washington, where you won't feel
embattled because you'll exchange ideas with liberals and
others
Post by Philip Lewis
in a more intellectually diverse setting. You'll probably end up
doing more good.
Last week the professors at Harvard's government department
reviewed the placement records of last year's doctoral
students.
Post by Philip Lewis
Two had not been able to find academic jobs, both of them
Mansfield's students. "Well," Mansfield quipped, "I guess
they'll
Post by Philip Lewis
have to go to Washington and run the country."
I suppose this will always be a problem if you are one of
those who judge a university by it's political science
and 'liberal' arts faculty.
You forgot the campus culture.
OTOH, there are a lot
of faculty members in science and engineering whose
political views are never subject to discussion. For
those folks the 'conservatives' are those whose major
professor published his own thesis more than 20 years
ago!
You forgot the campus culture.
At schools like Oregon State or UC Davis (the schools
I attended), the 'Lonely Campus Voices' are all the
poli sci and english professors who get the short end
of the stick when it comes to budgets, salaries, and
public attention.
You forgot the campus culture.
I wonder how the politics at MIT and CalTech would compare
with those at Princeton or Yale?
Yes - you do wonder.
Are the conservative students
warned not to make public their feelings about Newtonian
physics?

Are you deliberately missing the point or does it come naturally?

Phil
Mark Borgerson
Mark Borgerson
2003-09-29 14:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Lonely Campus Voices
By DAVID BROOKS
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/opinion/27BROO.html?ex=1065763242&ei=1&en=fd9ecf4d9c7a68db
Post by Philip Lewis
Published: September 27, 2003
Most good universities have at least one conservative
professor
Post by Philip Lewis
on campus. When, for example, some group at Harvard wants to
hold
Post by Philip Lewis
a panel discussion on some political matter, it can bring out
the
Post by Philip Lewis
political theorist Harvey Mansfield to hold up the rightward
end.
Post by Philip Lewis
At Princeton it's Robert George. At Yale it's Donald Kagan.
These dissenters lead interesting lives. But there's one
circumstance that causes true anguish: when a bright
conservative
Post by Philip Lewis
student comes to them and says he or she is thinking about
pursuing an academic career in the humanities or social
sciences.
Post by Philip Lewis
"This is one of the most difficult things," says Alan Kors, a
rare conservative at Penn. "One is desperate to see people of
independent mind willing to enter the academic world. On the
other hand, it is simply the case they will be entering
hostile
Post by Philip Lewis
and discriminatory territory."
"Here's what I'm thinking when an outstanding kid comes in,"
says
Post by Philip Lewis
George, of Princeton. "If the kid applies to one of the top
graduate schools, he's likely to be not admitted. Say he gets
past that first screen. He's going to face pressure to
conform,
Post by Philip Lewis
or he'll be the victim of discrimination. It's a lot harder
to
Post by Philip Lewis
hide then than it was as an undergrad.
"But say he gets through. He's going to run into intense
discrimination trying to find a job. But say he lands a
tenure-track job. He'll run into even more intense
discrimination
Post by Philip Lewis
because the establishment gets more concerned the closer you
get
Post by Philip Lewis
to the golden ring. By the time you come up for tenure,
you're in
Post by Philip Lewis
your mid-30's with a spouse and a couple of kids. It's the
worst
Post by Philip Lewis
time to be uncertain about your career. Can I really take the
responsibility of advising a kid to take these kinds of
risks?"
Post by Philip Lewis
The most common advice conservative students get is to keep
their
Post by Philip Lewis
views in the closet. Will Inboden was working on a master's
degree in U.S. history at Yale when a liberal professor
pulled
Post by Philip Lewis
him aside after class and said: "You're one of the best
students
Post by Philip Lewis
I've got, and you could have an outstanding career. But I
have to
Post by Philip Lewis
caution you: hiring committees are loath to hire political
conservatives. You've got to be really quiet."
Conservative professors emphasize that most discrimination is
not
Post by Philip Lewis
conscious. A person who voted for President Bush may be
viewed as
Post by Philip Lewis
an oddity, but the main problem in finding a job is that the
sorts of subjects a conservative is likely to investigate -
say,
Post by Philip Lewis
diplomatic or military history - do not excite hiring
committees.
Post by Philip Lewis
Professors are interested in the subjects they are already
pursuing, and in a horrible job market it is easy to toss out
applications from people who are doing something different.
As a result, faculties skew overwhelmingly to the left.
Students
Post by Philip Lewis
often have no contact with adult conservatives, and many
develop
Post by Philip Lewis
cartoonish impressions of how 40 percent of the country
thinks.
Post by Philip Lewis
Hundreds of conservatives with Ph.D.'s end up working in
Republican administrations, in think tanks and at magazines,
often with some regrets. "Teaching is this really splendid
thing.
Post by Philip Lewis
It would be great to teach Plato's `Republic,' " says Gary
Rosen,
Post by Philip Lewis
a Harvard Ph.D. who works at Commentary magazine.
Despite all this, George advises his best and toughest
students
Post by Philip Lewis
to go ahead. "We need to send our best soldiers into battle,
even
Post by Philip Lewis
though we're going to lose a few," he says. "I hate to tell
kids
Post by Philip Lewis
they shouldn't take risks, they shouldn't go for their
dreams."
Post by Philip Lewis
Others say it is possible to have a satisfying career and do
good
Post by Philip Lewis
work if you learn not to fly straight into the prevailing
ideology. "Conservatives are people who teach the value of
prudence but are incapable of exercising any," says Mark
Lilla, a
Post by Philip Lewis
politically unclassifiable professor at the University of
Chicago.
And Jacob T. Levy, a libertarian also at Chicago, says some
conservatives exaggerate the level of hostility they face.
Some
Post by Philip Lewis
politicized humanities departments may be closed to them, he
concedes, but professors in other fields are open to
argument.
Post by Philip Lewis
If it were my kid, I'd say go to graduate school - read the
books
Post by Philip Lewis
you want to read. Then go to Washington, where you won't feel
embattled because you'll exchange ideas with liberals and
others
Post by Philip Lewis
in a more intellectually diverse setting. You'll probably end
up
Post by Philip Lewis
doing more good.
Last week the professors at Harvard's government department
reviewed the placement records of last year's doctoral
students.
Post by Philip Lewis
Two had not been able to find academic jobs, both of them
Mansfield's students. "Well," Mansfield quipped, "I guess
they'll
Post by Philip Lewis
have to go to Washington and run the country."
I suppose this will always be a problem if you are one of
those who judge a university by it's political science
and 'liberal' arts faculty.
You forgot the campus culture.
OTOH, there are a lot
of faculty members in science and engineering whose
political views are never subject to discussion. For
those folks the 'conservatives' are those whose major
professor published his own thesis more than 20 years
ago!
You forgot the campus culture.
At schools like Oregon State or UC Davis (the schools
I attended), the 'Lonely Campus Voices' are all the
poli sci and english professors who get the short end
of the stick when it comes to budgets, salaries, and
public attention.
You forgot the campus culture.
I wonder how the politics at MIT and CalTech would compare
with those at Princeton or Yale?
Yes - you do wonder.
Are the conservative students
warned not to make public their feelings about Newtonian
physics?
Are you deliberately missing the point or does it come naturally?
No, I am deliberately making the point that, on many campuses,
the posturing and whining of the poli sci departments, political
conservative and liberals, and even the feminists, play a very
small part ongoing drama that is 'campus culture'.

All the professors and graduate students I worked with were MUCH
more concerned about funding for their research in oceanography than
they were about politics.

The author of the article concentrated on a subset of the American
university culture. I'm simply pointing out that that subset may
not be representative of the full scope of the university culture
in the USA.

Mark Borgerson
merasmus
2003-09-29 20:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Lonely Campus Voices
By DAVID BROOKS
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/opinion/27BROO.html?ex=1065763242&ei=1&en=fd9ecf4d9c7a68db
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Published: September 27, 2003
Most good universities have at least one conservative
professor
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
on campus. When, for example, some group at Harvard wants to
hold
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
a panel discussion on some political matter, it can bring out
the
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
political theorist Harvey Mansfield to hold up the rightward
end.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
At Princeton it's Robert George. At Yale it's Donald Kagan.
These dissenters lead interesting lives. But there's one
circumstance that causes true anguish: when a bright
conservative
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
student comes to them and says he or she is thinking about
pursuing an academic career in the humanities or social
sciences.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
"This is one of the most difficult things," says Alan Kors, a
rare conservative at Penn. "One is desperate to see people of
independent mind willing to enter the academic world. On the
other hand, it is simply the case they will be entering
hostile
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
and discriminatory territory."
"Here's what I'm thinking when an outstanding kid comes in,"
says
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
George, of Princeton. "If the kid applies to one of the top
graduate schools, he's likely to be not admitted. Say he gets
past that first screen. He's going to face pressure to
conform,
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
or he'll be the victim of discrimination. It's a lot harder
to
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
hide then than it was as an undergrad.
"But say he gets through. He's going to run into intense
discrimination trying to find a job. But say he lands a
tenure-track job. He'll run into even more intense
discrimination
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
because the establishment gets more concerned the closer you
get
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
to the golden ring. By the time you come up for tenure,
you're in
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
your mid-30's with a spouse and a couple of kids. It's the
worst
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
time to be uncertain about your career. Can I really take the
responsibility of advising a kid to take these kinds of
risks?"
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
The most common advice conservative students get is to keep
their
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
views in the closet. Will Inboden was working on a master's
degree in U.S. history at Yale when a liberal professor
pulled
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
him aside after class and said: "You're one of the best
students
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
I've got, and you could have an outstanding career. But I
have to
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
caution you: hiring committees are loath to hire political
conservatives. You've got to be really quiet."
Conservative professors emphasize that most discrimination is
not
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
conscious. A person who voted for President Bush may be
viewed as
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
an oddity, but the main problem in finding a job is that the
sorts of subjects a conservative is likely to investigate -
say,
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
diplomatic or military history - do not excite hiring
committees.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Professors are interested in the subjects they are already
pursuing, and in a horrible job market it is easy to toss out
applications from people who are doing something different.
As a result, faculties skew overwhelmingly to the left.
Students
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
often have no contact with adult conservatives, and many
develop
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
cartoonish impressions of how 40 percent of the country
thinks.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Hundreds of conservatives with Ph.D.'s end up working in
Republican administrations, in think tanks and at magazines,
often with some regrets. "Teaching is this really splendid
thing.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
It would be great to teach Plato's `Republic,' " says Gary
Rosen,
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
a Harvard Ph.D. who works at Commentary magazine.
Despite all this, George advises his best and toughest
students
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
to go ahead. "We need to send our best soldiers into battle,
even
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
though we're going to lose a few," he says. "I hate to tell
kids
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
they shouldn't take risks, they shouldn't go for their
dreams."
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Others say it is possible to have a satisfying career and do
good
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
work if you learn not to fly straight into the prevailing
ideology. "Conservatives are people who teach the value of
prudence but are incapable of exercising any," says Mark
Lilla, a
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
politically unclassifiable professor at the University of
Chicago.
And Jacob T. Levy, a libertarian also at Chicago, says some
conservatives exaggerate the level of hostility they face.
Some
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
politicized humanities departments may be closed to them, he
concedes, but professors in other fields are open to
argument.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
If it were my kid, I'd say go to graduate school - read the
books
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
you want to read. Then go to Washington, where you won't feel
embattled because you'll exchange ideas with liberals and
others
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
in a more intellectually diverse setting. You'll probably end
up
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
doing more good.
Last week the professors at Harvard's government department
reviewed the placement records of last year's doctoral
students.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Two had not been able to find academic jobs, both of them
Mansfield's students. "Well," Mansfield quipped, "I guess
they'll
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
have to go to Washington and run the country."
I suppose this will always be a problem if you are one of
those who judge a university by it's political science
and 'liberal' arts faculty.
Well it certainly will be a problem for anyone who knows what
*LIBERTY* and freedom of thought is. Moscow University used to be
pretty "flat" too, before '89. Was that good? Were the Communists
there smug little sycophants like we find all over our "institutions
of ... 'higher' ... well something I suppose"? We treat thought and
opinionas if it were somehow "binary" when it clearly is not.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
You forgot the campus culture.
OTOH, there are a lot
of faculty members in science and engineering whose
political views are never subject to discussion. For
those folks the 'conservatives' are those whose major
professor published his own thesis more than 20 years
ago!
You forgot the campus culture.
At schools like Oregon State or UC Davis (the schools
I attended), the 'Lonely Campus Voices' are all the
poli sci and english professors who get the short end
of the stick when it comes to budgets, salaries, and
public attention.
Mostly they get little money because they get "position" instead.
The qualifications are, at least, amusing. There a hundreds of
thousands as qualified out there eager to replace them. And most
of what they do is to sing, in a pathetic sort of Greek chorus,
"we live in the best of all possible worlds! Hurrah for the State!"
Drs. Pangloss all.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
You forgot the campus culture.
I wonder how the politics at MIT and CalTech would compare
with those at Princeton or Yale?
Very much the same. The same powers control both, and they have
decided
that to control the schools is to control the future. "Learning" is
not
particularily valued anywhere in america. Appearance and concurrance
dominate.
Post by Philip Lewis
Post by Philip Lewis
Yes - you do wonder.
Are the conservative students
warned not to make public their feelings about Newtonian
physics?
Are you deliberately missing the point or does it come naturally?
No, I am deliberately making the point that, on many campuses,
the posturing and whining of the poli sci departments, political
conservative and liberals, and even the feminists, play a very
small part ongoing drama that is 'campus culture'.
All the professors and graduate students I worked with were MUCH
more concerned about funding for their research in oceanography than
they were about politics.
The author of the article concentrated on a subset of the American
university culture. I'm simply pointing out that that subset may
not be representative of the full scope of the university culture
in the USA.
Of course not. He is focusing only on variety of thinking, of
intellectual competition, of honesty of opinion. It is true -- most
of campus culture is as elevated as a used car lot. It is about
money. And the money goes to the subservient.
Post by Philip Lewis
Mark Borgerson
Mark Borgerson
2003-09-30 01:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Borgerson
No, I am deliberately making the point that, on many campuses,
the posturing and whining of the poli sci departments, political
conservative and liberals, and even the feminists, play a very
small part ongoing drama that is 'campus culture'.
Unfortunately you are wrong about how pervasive the PC mentality is. On
most college campuses every entering freshman is required to attend an
"orientation" session that is intended to teach liberal "diversity" and
other social agenda theories. Many colleges require repeat attendance
every year. All students, not just political science majors, are
required to attend classes in "English" where they teach "feminist
theory" and "marxist theory." The campus newspaper prints liberal news
every day, and the fraternity has to practice AA and be careful not to
use "offensive" language. Even in traditional bastions like West Point
the new feminized culture is now endemic.
Lots of opinions there about 'most college campuses'. Do you have
any cites to support your opinions?
There may be a few small technical colleges that have so far excepted,
but being an engineering student on a big campus is not a way to avoid
PC culture.
I'll agree with that. There is NO way to avoid PC culture in the USA
today. However, a lot of things you can't avoid really have very
little impact on my day-to-day life. PC culture is like
those TV ads for drugs to reduce acid reflux. You know SOMEBODY
thinks they're important, but you manage to tune them out pretty well.
Post by Mark Borgerson
All the professors and graduate students I worked with were MUCH
more concerned about funding for their research in oceanography than
they were about politics.
But the campus daily newspaper, the english class you had to take, and a
lot of the campus were PC focused. Even the research money often has to
be from PC sources.
Hmmm, last time I checked, the Office of Naval Research wasn't
particularly concerned about the politics of the scientists
applying for grants. The most PC thing you had to do was
certify that you were running a drug-free workplace!
Post by Mark Borgerson
The author of the article concentrated on a subset of the American
university culture. I'm simply pointing out that that subset may
not be representative of the full scope of the university culture
in the USA.
Mark Borgerson
Figures I've seen suggest that there may be 10% or so conservative
professors hired.
How do you define conservative and where do you find data on the
politics of professors in engineering and physical sciences?
On the other hand a year or two ago there was a posted article from a
man who was a professor at a large Canadian university. In the article
he attended a meeting on the retirement plan for faculty who had been
there less than 20 years. He was the only man at the meeting. With a
little research he found that the entire university had hired exactly 2
men in 20 years.
Does that mean he was the only man hired in that time span, or
was he simply the only one who bothered to go to the meeting--
the other 27 men having read the printed material and decided
that the meeting was a waste of time?
His experience was consistent with mine working for University of
California. They worked hard to hire only women unless they could not
find any women to hire. In my department they had not hired any men in
entry level positions in about 20 years. The few men left were the old
timers, who carried most of the burden of the work.
Well, that's California for you? Which part of the University did
you work for? Was it perchance UC Davis, my alma mater?


When I worked in the Computer Science Department at OSU, the
department hired 5 men (including me) while I was there,
and only one woman. But that was 15 years ago.

Since then, they've hired a lot of men and women.

When we discussed this issue in another thread, back in
April, I checked the OSU stats for the more politically
active departments:

"Here at Oregon State, the university has hired quite a few men
for entry level positions as educators in philosophy, education,
English, ethnic studies, sociology, etc. I counted about 10 men
new hires in those areas in the last 5 years (in a scan of about 20% of
the faculty list) There were dozens more men hired as instructors,
research assistants and assistant professors in science and technology.
I guess we're just a few decades behind California in our hiring
practices! I wouldn't be surprised if things are different at the U.
of Oregon in Eugene. They're much closer to California than you might
expect from being just 40 miles further South! "



Mark Borgerson
Bob
2003-09-30 03:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
No, I am deliberately making the point that, on many campuses,
the posturing and whining of the poli sci departments, political
conservative and liberals, and even the feminists, play a very
small part ongoing drama that is 'campus culture'.
Unfortunately you are wrong about how pervasive the PC mentality is. On
most college campuses every entering freshman is required to attend an
"orientation" session that is intended to teach liberal "diversity" and
other social agenda theories. Many colleges require repeat attendance
every year. All students, not just political science majors, are
required to attend classes in "English" where they teach "feminist
theory" and "marxist theory." The campus newspaper prints liberal news
every day, and the fraternity has to practice AA and be careful not to
use "offensive" language. Even in traditional bastions like West Point
the new feminized culture is now endemic.
Lots of opinions there about 'most college campuses'. Do you have
any cites to support your opinions?
There have been several previous cites for books such as "Professing
Misandry" or "The Shadow University" that go into such matters in
detail. As for "feminist theory" go read the theory textbook and course
material in the English Department at your local university or college.
Post by Mark Borgerson
There may be a few small technical colleges that have so far excepted,
but being an engineering student on a big campus is not a way to avoid
PC culture.
I'll agree with that. There is NO way to avoid PC culture in the USA
today. However, a lot of things you can't avoid really have very
little impact on my day-to-day life. PC culture is like
those TV ads for drugs to reduce acid reflux. You know SOMEBODY
thinks they're important, but you manage to tune them out pretty well.
If you don't mind being forced to pay some significant percentage of
YOUR MONEY to support them. Yes, that affects most of us every day.
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
All the professors and graduate students I worked with were MUCH
more concerned about funding for their research in oceanography than
they were about politics.
But the campus daily newspaper, the english class you had to take, and a
lot of the campus were PC focused. Even the research money often has to
be from PC sources.
Hmmm, last time I checked, the Office of Naval Research wasn't
particularly concerned about the politics of the scientists
applying for grants. The most PC thing you had to do was
certify that you were running a drug-free workplace!
You would be wrong about the Office of Naval Research. From 5 minutes
on their web site I find the following PC racist discriminatory program
aimed at discrimination against white men.

http://www.onr.navy.mil/osb/hbcu_mi.htm
"ONR Science and Technology Historically Black Colleges and Universities
and Minority Institutions Council

"Program Description
The ONR Science and Technology (S & T) Historically Black Colleges and
Universities and Minority Institutions (HBCU/MI) Council is an
officially established ONR council whose primary purpose is to
facilitate interactions, between HBCU/MIs and ONR, which may lead to
greater HBCU/MI participation in ONR programs. The ONR S & T Divisions
and the Naval Research Laboratory are represented by members on the
HBCU/MI Council. Inquirers seeking information on possible support for
research should contact a Council member based on the S & T area of
interest.

"The objectives of this Council are as follows:
* to foster support of meritorious research proposals originating
at HBCU/MIs
* to assist HBCU/MIs in strengthening their capability to conduct
quality research of interest to ONR
* to assist in the development of science and engineering education
programs geared
* to increasing the participation of underrepresented minorities in
research and development areas of interest to ONR
* to coordinate the ONR HBCU/MI Program with similar programs in
other Federal agencies."


So much for PC programs at ONR. They are like all other government
agencies -- blatantly racist and sexist against white men in hiring
promotions, financial grants, inter-agency support, and government
procurement contracts.
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
The author of the article concentrated on a subset of the American
university culture. I'm simply pointing out that that subset may
not be representative of the full scope of the university culture
in the USA.
Mark Borgerson
Figures I've seen suggest that there may be 10% or so conservative
professors hired.
How do you define conservative and where do you find data on the
politics of professors in engineering and physical sciences?
I believe that they either asked the professors if they were
"conservative" or "liberal," or used "Republican" or "Democrat" as
substitutes. Self identification would suffice.
Post by Mark Borgerson
On the other hand a year or two ago there was a posted article from a
man who was a professor at a large Canadian university. In the article
he attended a meeting on the retirement plan for faculty who had been
there less than 20 years. He was the only man at the meeting. With a
little research he found that the entire university had hired exactly 2
men in 20 years.
Does that mean he was the only man hired in that time span, or
was he simply the only one who bothered to go to the meeting--
the other 27 men having read the printed material and decided
that the meeting was a waste of time?
He was the only man who bothered to go. The only one (1) other man
hired during that time span missed the meeting.
Post by Mark Borgerson
His experience was consistent with mine working for University of
California. They worked hard to hire only women unless they could not
find any women to hire. In my department they had not hired any men in
entry level positions in about 20 years. The few men left were the old
timers, who carried most of the burden of the work.
Well, that's California for you? Which part of the University did
you work for? Was it perchance UC Davis, my alma mater?
It was University of California, Los Alamos National Laboratory, where
UC has more employees than any other campus or laboratory.
Post by Mark Borgerson
When I worked in the Computer Science Department at OSU, the
department hired 5 men (including me) while I was there,
and only one woman. But that was 15 years ago.
Since then, they've hired a lot of men and women.
In hard sciences it's difficult to find women to hire. It requires
years of specialized technical education. They still have to hire men
in technical fields for lack of available women. That is NOT an
indicator of their lack of discriminatory hiring practice. They would
not hire any men if sufficient women were available.
Post by Mark Borgerson
When we discussed this issue in another thread, back in
April, I checked the OSU stats for the more politically
"Here at Oregon State, the university has hired quite a few men
for entry level positions as educators in philosophy, education,
English, ethnic studies, sociology, etc. I counted about 10 men
new hires in those areas in the last 5 years (in a scan of about 20% of
the faculty list) There were dozens more men hired as instructors,
research assistants and assistant professors in science and technology.
I guess we're just a few decades behind California in our hiring
practices! I wouldn't be surprised if things are different at the U.
of Oregon in Eugene. They're much closer to California than you might
expect from being just 40 miles further South! "
Mark Borgerson
Eugene is a more liberal town than Corvalis, and UofO more liberal than
OSU. My wife got her MA from UofO in Eugene some years ago. She
concurred with that guess. "State" universities tend to include the
more of the engineering, technical, agricultural, etc., fields
proportionately than "U of" schools. More men still inhabit the
technical fields despite active recruiting of women intentionally to
replace men in those fields too.

Bob
Mark Borgerson
2003-09-30 05:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
No, I am deliberately making the point that, on many campuses,
the posturing and whining of the poli sci departments, political
conservative and liberals, and even the feminists, play a very
small part ongoing drama that is 'campus culture'.
Unfortunately you are wrong about how pervasive the PC mentality is. On
most college campuses every entering freshman is required to attend an
"orientation" session that is intended to teach liberal "diversity" and
other social agenda theories. Many colleges require repeat attendance
every year. All students, not just political science majors, are
required to attend classes in "English" where they teach "feminist
theory" and "marxist theory." The campus newspaper prints liberal news
every day, and the fraternity has to practice AA and be careful not to
use "offensive" language. Even in traditional bastions like West Point
the new feminized culture is now endemic.
Lots of opinions there about 'most college campuses'. Do you have
any cites to support your opinions?
There have been several previous cites for books such as "Professing
Misandry" or "The Shadow University" that go into such matters in
detail. As for "feminist theory" go read the theory textbook and course
material in the English Department at your local university or college.
Post by Mark Borgerson
There may be a few small technical colleges that have so far excepted,
but being an engineering student on a big campus is not a way to avoid
PC culture.
I'll agree with that. There is NO way to avoid PC culture in the USA
today. However, a lot of things you can't avoid really have very
little impact on my day-to-day life. PC culture is like
those TV ads for drugs to reduce acid reflux. You know SOMEBODY
thinks they're important, but you manage to tune them out pretty well.
If you don't mind being forced to pay some significant percentage of
YOUR MONEY to support them. Yes, that affects most of us every day.
The same argument applies to almost everything for which we pay taxes.
I'm not particularly thrilled to be paying farmers in Georgia to
NOT grow tobacco, but I manage to get past that at tax time.
There was a science fiction writer who once proposed that when you
paid your taxes, you got to vote for the programs on which you
wanted the money to be spent. The revenue was then allocated
according to the votes for each program. It would certainly
make tax time more interesting!
Post by Bob
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
All the professors and graduate students I worked with were MUCH
more concerned about funding for their research in oceanography than
they were about politics.
But the campus daily newspaper, the english class you had to take, and a
lot of the campus were PC focused. Even the research money often has to
be from PC sources.
Hmmm, last time I checked, the Office of Naval Research wasn't
particularly concerned about the politics of the scientists
applying for grants. The most PC thing you had to do was
certify that you were running a drug-free workplace!
You would be wrong about the Office of Naval Research. From 5 minutes
on their web site I find the following PC racist discriminatory program
aimed at discrimination against white men.
http://www.onr.navy.mil/osb/hbcu_mi.htm
"ONR Science and Technology Historically Black Colleges and Universities
and Minority Institutions Council
"Program Description
The ONR Science and Technology (S & T) Historically Black Colleges and
Universities and Minority Institutions (HBCU/MI) Council is an
officially established ONR council whose primary purpose is to
facilitate interactions, between HBCU/MIs and ONR, which may lead to
greater HBCU/MI participation in ONR programs. The ONR S & T Divisions
and the Naval Research Laboratory are represented by members on the
HBCU/MI Council. Inquirers seeking information on possible support for
research should contact a Council member based on the S & T area of
interest.
* to foster support of meritorious research proposals originating
at HBCU/MIs
* to assist HBCU/MIs in strengthening their capability to conduct
quality research of interest to ONR
* to assist in the development of science and engineering education
programs geared
* to increasing the participation of underrepresented minorities in
research and development areas of interest to ONR
* to coordinate the ONR HBCU/MI Program with similar programs in
other Federal agencies."
So much for PC programs at ONR. They are like all other government
agencies -- blatantly racist and sexist against white men in hiring
promotions, financial grants, inter-agency support, and government
procurement contracts.
Note that none of the above mentions the politics of the grant
applicants. You have mixed in gender, race, and minority status.
IIRC, the subject was the political views of the professors!
For all the PC rhetoric, I would venture a guess that more than
80% of the recipients of their grants are white or asian men.
Participation on the above-cited council sounds like the archetype of a
SLJOJ to me. (Shitty Little Junior Officer Job).
Post by Bob
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
The author of the article concentrated on a subset of the American
university culture. I'm simply pointing out that that subset may
not be representative of the full scope of the university culture
in the USA.
Mark Borgerson
Figures I've seen suggest that there may be 10% or so conservative
professors hired.
How do you define conservative and where do you find data on the
politics of professors in engineering and physical sciences?
I believe that they either asked the professors if they were
"conservative" or "liberal," or used "Republican" or "Democrat" as
substitutes. Self identification would suffice.
The last job interview that I had at the University, no one ever
asked anything about politics, sexual orientation, or marital
status.

These days, I'd be a bit leary of equating Republican and Conservative.
The Republican party leadership is catching a bit of heat over their
lack of attention to the more moderate members of their constituency.
Post by Bob
Post by Mark Borgerson
On the other hand a year or two ago there was a posted article from a
man who was a professor at a large Canadian university. In the article
he attended a meeting on the retirement plan for faculty who had been
there less than 20 years. He was the only man at the meeting. With a
little research he found that the entire university had hired exactly 2
men in 20 years.
Does that mean he was the only man hired in that time span, or
was he simply the only one who bothered to go to the meeting--
the other 27 men having read the printed material and decided
that the meeting was a waste of time?
He was the only man who bothered to go. The only one (1) other man
hired during that time span missed the meeting.
Post by Mark Borgerson
His experience was consistent with mine working for University of
California. They worked hard to hire only women unless they could not
find any women to hire. In my department they had not hired any men in
entry level positions in about 20 years. The few men left were the old
timers, who carried most of the burden of the work.
Well, that's California for you? Which part of the University did
you work for? Was it perchance UC Davis, my alma mater?
It was University of California, Los Alamos National Laboratory, where
UC has more employees than any other campus or laboratory.
Oh, good! I was afraid you were a Bob who worked in Fashion
Merchandising at one of the state colleges! ;-)

My impression was that LANL was highly physics oriented---at least it
was when I worked with some guys from there back in the 70's (we
were conducting surveillance of French Nuclear testing at Mururoa).
Can they actually find enough physicists and engineers that they
don't have to hire men any more?
Post by Bob
Post by Mark Borgerson
When I worked in the Computer Science Department at OSU, the
department hired 5 men (including me) while I was there,
and only one woman. But that was 15 years ago.
Since then, they've hired a lot of men and women.
In hard sciences it's difficult to find women to hire. It requires
years of specialized technical education. They still have to hire men
in technical fields for lack of available women. That is NOT an
indicator of their lack of discriminatory hiring practice. They would
not hire any men if sufficient women were available.
How many is sufficient? If a man gets hired when even one woman
applies, doesn't that mean that scholarship still outweighs gender?
Post by Bob
Post by Mark Borgerson
When we discussed this issue in another thread, back in
April, I checked the OSU stats for the more politically
"Here at Oregon State, the university has hired quite a few men
for entry level positions as educators in philosophy, education,
English, ethnic studies, sociology, etc. I counted about 10 men
new hires in those areas in the last 5 years (in a scan of about 20% of
the faculty list) There were dozens more men hired as instructors,
research assistants and assistant professors in science and technology.
I guess we're just a few decades behind California in our hiring
practices! I wouldn't be surprised if things are different at the U.
of Oregon in Eugene. They're much closer to California than you might
expect from being just 40 miles further South! "
Mark Borgerson
Eugene is a more liberal town than Corvalis, and UofO more liberal than
OSU. My wife got her MA from UofO in Eugene some years ago. She
concurred with that guess. "State" universities tend to include the
more of the engineering, technical, agricultural, etc., fields
proportionately than "U of" schools. More men still inhabit the
technical fields despite active recruiting of women intentionally to
replace men in those fields too.
That may apply some places, for sure. In California, the schools
run the gamut---all under the U. of California XXXX Campus
title. I do suspect that a campus becomes a bit more PC when
it gets a law school and med school. That certainly happened
at UC Davis shortly after I left.


Mark Borgerson
Mr. F. Le Mur
2003-09-30 10:38:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 05:24:35 GMT, Mark Borgerson <m-a-r-***@oes.to> wrote:

->> If you don't mind being forced to pay some significant percentage of
->> YOUR MONEY to support them. Yes, that affects most of us every day.
->
->The same argument applies to almost everything for which we pay taxes.

Yeah, they all practice racism and sexism.

What a dork.
Bob
2003-09-30 16:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Bob
So much for PC programs at ONR. They are like all other government
agencies -- blatantly racist and sexist against white men in hiring
promotions, financial grants, inter-agency support, and government
procurement contracts.
Note that none of the above mentions the politics of the grant
applicants. You have mixed in gender, race, and minority status.
IIRC, the subject was the political views of the professors!
For all the PC rhetoric, I would venture a guess that more than
80% of the recipients of their grants are white or asian men.
Participation on the above-cited council sounds like the archetype of a
SLJOJ to me. (Shitty Little Junior Officer Job).
Yep, the classic gov't program to give as many jobs and grants to blacks
and not to whites as they can.
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Bob
I believe that they either asked the professors if they were
"conservative" or "liberal," or used "Republican" or "Democrat" as
substitutes. Self identification would suffice.
The last job interview that I had at the University, no one ever
asked anything about politics, sexual orientation, or marital
status.
Sidestep dodge. You didn't get included in the survey.
Post by Mark Borgerson
These days, I'd be a bit leary of equating Republican and Conservative.
The Republican party leadership is catching a bit of heat over their
lack of attention to the more moderate members of their constituency.
True enough, the leadership figures that it has the conservatives locked
in so it's going after liberal or middle of the road votes.
Post by Mark Borgerson
My impression was that LANL was highly physics oriented---at least it
was when I worked with some guys from there back in the 70's (we
were conducting surveillance of French Nuclear testing at Mururoa).
Can they actually find enough physicists and engineers that they
don't have to hire men any more?
They have to hire men in science because they can't get enough women to
fill the positions. They make up for it by refusing to hire any men at
all in non-science positions, personnel, finance, purchasing, etc.
Except for hard, dirty, dangerous jobs like trucking, road crew,
maintenance, etc., where women's won't work.
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Bob
In hard sciences it's difficult to find women to hire. It requires
years of specialized technical education. They still have to hire men
in technical fields for lack of available women. That is NOT an
indicator of their lack of discriminatory hiring practice. They would
not hire any men if sufficient women were available.
How many is sufficient?
Another side step dodge. You didn't read what was said. "Sufficient"
is enough so they don't have to hire any men at all. "Diversity"
programs require to give preference to women.
Post by Mark Borgerson
If a man gets hired when even one woman
applies, doesn't that mean that scholarship still outweighs gender?
If both are qualified the law requires them to hire the woman -- every
time. If they hire the man they have to write a several page document
outlining why the woman was not qualified.

Bob
Hyerdahl1
2003-10-02 15:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Lonely Campus Voices
Date: 9/29/2003 8:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
No, I am deliberately making the point that, on many campuses,
the posturing and whining of the poli sci departments, politicalconservative
and liberals, and even the feminists, play a very>small part ongoing drama that
is 'campus culture'.
Post by Mark Borgerson
Unfortunately you are wrong about how pervasive the PC mentality is. On
most college campuses every entering freshman is required to attend an
"orientation" session that is intended to teach liberal "diversity" and >other
social agenda theories.

Orientation sessions are for the purpose of getting students started on the
right foot. Perhaps the future Arnolds of the world would benefit more by
learning ...right up front, that grabbing a woman's breast is not behavoir that
will be tolerated on campus.

Many colleges require repeat attendance >every year. All students, not just
political science majors, are >>>required to attend classes in "English" where
they teach "feminist >theory" and "marxist theory."

Hahahaha...I love it when radical Republicans want to get rid of English
classes. It's just funny.

The campus newspaper prints liberal news >>every day, and the fraternity has to
practice AA and be careful not to >>use "offensive" language. Even in
traditional bastions like West Point >>the new feminized culture is now
endemic.

What you call "feminized culture" is a matter of INCLUSION in campus speech.
In fact, in a world where 51% of the population is female, one could expect the
feminine to enter into all facets of our human institutions, no?
Post by Mark Borgerson
Lots of opinions there about 'most college campuses'. Do you have
any cites to support your opinions?
Indeed.
There have been several previous cites for books such as "Professing
Misandry" or "The Shadow University" that go into such matters in >detail.
Books written by bitter boys aren't as impressive as news stories from the
mainstream press tho, or an academic jounal like Psychology Digest.

As for "feminist theory" go read the theory textbook and course >material in
the English Department at your local university or college.
Trying to convince the masses that English 101 is a class in feminist theory
might be difficult even in a culture where our populace remains undereducated.
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
There may be a few small technical colleges that have so far excepted,
but being an engineering student on a big campus is not a way to avoid >>>PC
culture.

Indeed. Even there, the women are included. You might have to go all the way
to an Afghani medrassa to get what you want. I'm sure they don't teach English
101 there. :-)
Post by Mark Borgerson
Post by Mark Borgerson
I'll agree with that. There is NO way to avoid PC culture in the USA>
today. However, a lot of things you can't avoid really have very little
impact on my day-to-day life. PC culture is like
Post by Mark Borgerson
those TV ads for drugs to reduce acid reflux. You know SOMEBODY
thinks they're important, but you manage to tune them out pretty well.
Indeed. You can also tune out racism if you like, but, in the end, Rush
Limbaugh will still lose his job because he's a bigot.
You can still tune into his bigot radio show FOR bigots tho.
(edit)
Post by Mark Borgerson
Hmmm, last time I checked, the Office of Naval Research wasn't >
particularly concerned about the politics of the scientists> applying for
grants. The most PC thing you had to do was> certify that you were running a
drug-free workplace!
Indeed.
You would be wrong about the Office of Naval Research. From 5 minutes >on
their web site I find the following PC racist discriminatory program >aimed at
discrimination against white men.
He views having to include women (since they represent 51% + of the population)
is discrimination against white men. Cute.
(edit)
Post by Mark Borgerson
How do you define conservative and where do you find data on the
politics of professors in engineering and physical sciences?

He doesnt have any.
I believe that they either asked the professors if they were >"conservative"
or "liberal," or used "Republican" or "Democrat" as >substitutes. Self
identification would suffice.

Where? And, even if that were the case, what makes you think that their
liberal/conservative bent was part of the hiring process. If liberal folks
value education over conservative folks, why wouldn't they automatically rise
to the top?
Bob
Each colony is a family unit, comprising a single egg-laying female ...The
workers cooperate in the food gathering, nest building and rearing offspring.
Males are reared only at times of year when their presence is required.
(Secret Life of Bees)

Hyerdahl1
2003-09-30 15:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Lonely Campus Voices
Date: 9/29/2003 8:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
No, I am deliberately making the point that, on many campuses, the
posturing and whining of the poli sci departments, political
conservative and liberals, and even the feminists, play a very small part
ongoing drama that is 'campus culture'.
Unfortunately you are wrong about how pervasive the PC mentality is. On
most college campuses every entering freshman is required to attend an
"orientation" session that is intended to teach liberal "diversity" and
other social agenda theories.
Orientation sessions are about school rules; where I went to school, for
example, there were (at that time) curfews for students. If you didn't want to
follow those school rules, you were free to attend another school.

Many colleges require repeat attendance
every year.
So what?

All students, not just political science majors, are >required to attend
classes in "English" where they teach "feminist
theory" and "marxist theory."
"English 101" is NOT about feminism; it's about teaching students how to read
and write at a college level.

The campus newspaper prints liberal news >every day, and the fraternity has
to practice AA and be careful not to
use "offensive" language.
The campus papers print what STUDENTS want printed, the news they believe will
be interesting or informative to other students.
If you think they are too liberal, why not have your son get a job on the
press? :-)
Oh...that's right...I forgot for a moment that inflatable dolls can't reproduce
yet. AND, every school can establish a code of conduct that supports a
non-hostle schoolhouse.

Even in traditional bastions like West Point
the new feminized culture is now endemic.
Poor Booby doesn't like the non-hostle schoolhouse. That's really too bad.
There may be a few small technical colleges that have so far excepted,
but being an engineering student on a big campus is not a way to avoid >PC
culture.
Hahahaha The engineering gods already got a comeuppance as the dot.coms lost
their lucrative salaries, and now they have to work 9-5 just like everyone
else, for similar pay. AND, a person with a well rounded degree will always be
in demand, even when the dot-coms go down. So, if you want a good-old-boy
education, continue on in linear engineering programs, but even there women are
also interested in engineering....so I don't think there's much hope for your
niche.
Post by Mark Borgerson
All the professors and graduate students I worked with were MUCH
more concerned about funding for their research in oceanography than> they
were about politics.

Funding for research DEPENDS on politics, so you may be underestimating the
voting potential of those professors and graduates. Just because they don't
spend much time watching FOX does not mean their voting will be stymied.
But the campus daily newspaper, the english class you had to take, and a
lot of the campus were PC focused.
So, get your rubber-doll made son to join the press; that is how the press is
changed by new blood (or in your case silicone).

Even the research money often has to
be from PC sources.
The political IS personal.
The author of the article concentrated on a subset of the American>
university culture. I'm simply pointing out that that subset may> not be
representative of the full scope of the university culture
in the USA.
University culture is made from educated people, much different from
engineering culture which is a lot more limited. I think we all know which
will end up on top.
Mark Borgerson
Figures I've seen suggest that there may be 10% or so conservative >professors
hired.

Well, I've heard that Rush Limbaugh's brother works at UOP. :-)
On the other hand a year or two ago there was a posted article from a
man who was a professor at a large Canadian university. In the article
he attended a meeting on the retirement plan for faculty who had been
there less than 20 years. He was the only man at the meeting. With a
little research he found that the entire university had hired exactly 2 >men
in 20 years.

So what? The best person for the job is not always a man OR a "conservative".
Educated people tend to prefer other educated people.
His experience was consistent with mine working for University of >California.
They worked hard to hire only women unless they could not find any women to
hire.

There is no reason to hire women over men in a university system where women
are already equally represented. AND, the women they DO hire must have merit.

In my department they had not hired any men in >entry level positions in
about 20 years.

Are the men working there equally represented in staffing?

The few men left were the old >timers, who carried most of the burden of the
work.
Here is the smallest violin playing the saddest song.
Bob
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